who ARE the iroquois????

do you know anything bout the iroquois?

  • i know, in fact i am one myself

    Votes: 8 11.3%
  • i know the basics

    Votes: 42 59.2%
  • i've heard of them, but know nothing

    Votes: 13 18.3%
  • er... gimme 5 mins and a encylcopedia and i'll tell you

    Votes: 8 11.3%

  • Total voters
    71
There is much difference between Iroquois and Sioux, of about several hundred miles...

Also I find it hard to believe that anyone of school age from the UK would not know who these eastern native Americans (Iroquois ) were...

I think Mr F Bob is pulling our leg somewhat...

PS
Sultan Bhargash and Alpine Trooper have had the best posts in this thread...well said, gentlemen!
 
Why?
We get that in Holland too, in history class. It has something to do with the Independence War the US fought against England, if I recall correctly.... (I believe part of the Iroqois took the side of the US and part of them fought on the side of England...)
Why shouldn't schools in Europe teach about the emergence of the most powerfull nation in the world... It is a significant part of the world's history, after all...
 
Darkness,

You must be shrouded in darkness, coz you obviously miss my point.

I meant that WE DO get taught these things in Europe (which the UK is a part of, actually).
So that is why I find it hard to believe that this F Bob guy has never heard of these Indians...

He is Playing us for fools.

Curt.
 
I don't think f*rting bob is playing us for fools, Curt. I certainly wouldn't want to discourage f*rting bob from opening more threads or posting more. Believe it or not, there are plenty of schools in the USA that teach very little about the native people who were here before us.

I learned more about the history of the British monarchy than I did about different Native American groups and I was in a good school system in the years before Reaganomics sunk our education level. I could tell you all about Henry VIII's wives when I was 13 but it wasn't till nearly a decade later that I could tell you who Geronimo was...

he was that guy who jumped out of a plane, right?
 
Originally posted by CurtSibling
There is much difference between Iroquois and Sioux, of about several hundred miles...

Also I find it hard to believe that anyone of school age from the UK would not know who these eastern native Americans (Iroquois ) were...

I think Mr F Bob is pulling our leg somewhat...

PS
Sultan Bhargash and Alpine Trooper have had the best posts in this thread...well said, gentlemen!

in england, i'm still only 15, and we have covered the americanindependance but not any tribes etc that were there before. so i'm not pulling anyones leg. :p
Oh, sultan, whydo u spell my name f*rting bob? farting isn't a swear word....:p
 
Originally posted by farting bob

Oh, sultan, whydo u spell my name f*rting bob? farting isn't a swear word....:p

At your request I will risk my neck by calling you farting bob in this post, for a long time I had no problem calling you farting bob, farting bob, but apparently the moderators have some sort of problem with the name farting bob. I have been given the impression it is "trolling" to say farting bob. That is why we started calling you F bob, (threadstarter), f*rting bob, etc. Some of us play PBEM games on this forum and a suspension just for saying "farting bob" would hamper those games and make life sad.

I am going to go back to calling you farting bob, farting bob, and I hope that if a moderator views this post they take into account the fact that you wish to be called by the moniker you have chosen, and that rather than penalize me, if they find it offensive, they would persuade you to change your name...


In the event that that happens, may I suggest "Flat Ulence" or "Silent But Deadly" as less graphic monikers which still express your unique talent for... you know...
 
Originally posted by Sultan Bhargash
Believe it or not, there are plenty of schools in the USA that teach very little about the native people who were here before us.

Thats definately true. They spend way too much time on the Renaissance (at least at my school they do) :rolleyes:

I learn more here at CFC then I do at school. ;)
 
The Iroquois had their heyday some years before the American War of Independance. They were the strongest group of indians in the northeast. The Cherokee in the southeast were also very strong. In the northwest, the Sioux had a strong reputation but were more nomadic than the others. Actually, the history of the American indians is one of constant pressure between tribes, as the stronger ones were always pushing weaker ones back. Nothing unique about that.
 
hey, what about the city's names?
I thought Salamanca, Vallladolid and so on were spanish names.
 
The Iroquois led a half-nomadic life until they came to the NE woodlands. There they discovered a novel way of agriculture.
By interplanting corn, beans (both originating from the souuth) and local squash, they significantly increased agricultural output while keeping the soil fertile for a very long time. This allowed them to settle down in permanent (20-30 years and more) towns.
Other tribes lived in the same area (using more primitive methods like slash & burn), but at the time there was plenty of space.

Still they quarreled a lot (too much free time, I think ;)) with their neighbours and among themselves, until Hiawatha and the Peacemaker made an end to most of that by forming the League in 1451 AD. From that moment the Iroquois prospered even more.

When the Europeans arrived, they were in the best position to control the fur trade routes. The French-supported Algonquin and Huron attacked them with guns, but when they got their own from the Dutch they were able to build a large empire, cleverly replacing their fallen with anyone who was willing to swear by the Great Law of Peace. Other tribes, such as the Sioux, were driven away onto the plains or even put out of existence (remnants being adopted).

They suffered from the European diseases, but not as much as other tribes, since they never knew hunger. But eventually they overextended, getting mixed up in too many European battles.

When, because of conflicting promises, they found themselves on two sides of the American war of Independence, this spelled the end of their empire and they lost most of the territory they had conquered. But while their empire ended, many of their ways and ideas remained, such as their democracy and respect for women, and eventually had a huge impact on the entire world.

Meanwhile, the Iroquois were never conquered themselves, and the Confederacy is still in existence. They still have their own law and government, flag and passport. Their numbers today are larger then ever, it is only because of the huge mass of immigrants and their descendants that they seem to have grown insignificant.

But even today they are not. Iroquois are advising environmental movements, making essential contributions by trying to teach a world of spoilers how to survive their own waste.


The Mounted Warrior is, obviously, a stupid choice by Firaxis for a civ that lives in the woodlands. The proper UU for the Iroquois would IMHO be a Musketman that treats all terrain as roads.

-

The Cherokee are Iroquoian, one of the closest cousins of the Iroquois.
 
Originally posted by Zcylen
hey, what about the city's names?
I thought Salamanca, Vallladolid and so on were spanish names.

A Google search reveals that Salamanca New York is home of the Seneca-Irquois national museum on the Alleghany Indian reservation.

Valladolid may also be an upstate NY name, or it may be a reference to the 1550 Council of the Indies in Valladolid, Spain, in which it was debated whether to "properly enslave" the Indians or to convert them to Christianity.

As the Native North Americans had relatively few named settlements (but plenty of names for natural features or regions) firaxis may have just opened the atlas to the Iroquios region and given it a go...
 
Originally posted by Zcylen
hey, what about the city's names?
I thought Salamanca, Vallladolid and so on were spanish names.

Salamanca (NY) 's original name was Bucktooth (in English). It was never the capital of the Iroquois; Firaxis' entire city list for the Iroquois pretty silly. It was renamed after a Jesuit priest

The true Iroquois capital is Onondaga. That is where the League's council meets were held, and where the sacred wampums were kept (and are again, the ones that have been recovered).

This is the Iroquois city list that I use, some improvements can still be made I think:

Onondaga (Onondaga)
Oneida (Oneida)
Teyagon (at Toronto) (Seneca)
Ganaraske (at Port Hope) (Cayuga)
Akwesasne (=Saint Regis) (Mohawk)
Canienga (Canienga=Mohawk)
Ogdensburgh (=Oswegatchie) (Onondaga / Oneida)
Caughnawaga (Mohawk)
Cattaraugus (Seneca)
Kente (Cayuga)

Gandesetaiagon (=Oshawa) (Seneca)
Tiohero (Cayuga)
Niagara Falls (Neutral / Tuscarora)
Tonawanda (Seneca)
Owego (Cayuga)
Kanagaro (Mohawk)
Opolopong (Oneida)
Grand River (Seneca)
Deseroken (Onondaga)
Allegany (Seneca)

Salamanca (=Bucktooth) (Seneca)
Tuscarora (Tuscarora)
Saratoga (Mohawk)
Geneseo (Seneca)
Chondote (Cayuga)
Tyendinaga (=Brantville) (Mohawk)
Tueadasso (Onondaga)
Buckaloon (Seneca)
Onnontare (Cayuga)
Skohare (Mohawk)

Catherine's Town (Seneca)
Ganogeh (Cayuga)
Lac des Deux Montagnes (near Oka) (Mohawk)
Skannayutenate (Cayuga)
Oriska (Oneida)
Canajoharie (Mohawk)
Oil Springs (Seneca)
Gannentaha (Onondaga)
Buffalo Creek (Seneca)
Neodakheat (Cayuga)

Cowassalong (Oneida)
Union Springs (Cayuga)
Venango (Seneca)
Nowadaga (Mohawk)
Chemung (Seneca)
Osquake (Mohawk)
Cittenango (Oneida)
Gadoquat (Onondaga)
Onnahee (Seneca)
Mingo Town (Iroquois)
 
Excellent list, Ribannah. I was wondering when you were going to weigh in on this thread, after our long debate about the Iroquois two weeks back.

As for UU, yes it has no place among the Iroquois, but I suspect Firaxis knew they were never going to bother with another north American tribe so they threw in the kitchen sink in dealing with the Iroquois. You have to admit that they did make Hiawatha a dashing figure compared to many of the other great leaders...
 
So much is true. :)
I share your suspicion about never seeing another NA tribe, at least not one with a recent Golden Age such as the Sioux. We can still hope to play the Anasazi sometime.
 
thanx!
as I said before, you can learn a lot reading these threads
 
Originally posted by Ribannah


Salamanca (NY) 's original name was Bucktooth (in English). It was never the capital of the Iroquois; Firaxis' entire city list for the Iroquois pretty silly. It was renamed after a Jesuit priest

If you think that the Iroquois city list is silly, the Chinese city list is even worse. A lot of them are old spellings, and some of them are way off the mark.

If you read the Indian in the Cupboard you can get some facts on it. That's partly how I got info on the Iroquois.
 
Originally posted by hbdragon88


If you think that the Iroquois city list is silly, the Chinese city list is even worse. A lot of them are old spellings, and some of them are way off the mark.

As I said before, after the third or fourth city on the Chinese list, they arent even cities any more. Theyre just provinces! For example, Canton is a PROVINCE where Hong Kong is. Is it really that difficult? If youre going to do this with China, why not list STATES for the US cities? :mad:

Sorry if I seem angry. Im Chinese decent, thats why.

EDIT: I just realized that I went completely off topic. I thought that this was the other thread about historically inccorect things in civ3
 
Funny, in Canadian Schools you'll start learning about the Natives in Grade 2 and continuosly on until grade 13 (Pending your province has a grade 13), Ontario just switched to Grade 12 from 13.

You want a hard curriculumn? Come to Canada!

Oh, and you can always thank CBC for it's wonderful information!


http://www.cbc.ca/history/
 
Originally posted by Ribannah
So much is true. :)
I share your suspicion about never seeing another NA tribe, at least not one with a recent Golden Age such as the Sioux. We can still hope to play the Anasazi sometime.

I would prefer the Kwakiutl of the Pacific Northwest with their totem poles, Potlach, and great houses.

I would love to see the genius behind the Native American Civ2 mod or someone likeminded make up a full blown Native American Civ3 mod with eight or so tribes, their UUs, traits, etc.

Good to hear from you Ribannah!
 
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