Why did Scottish secessionists lose the 2014 referendum?

[Alba]

The winning side preferred to preserve the Union and return to the status quo or voted no in hope of more powers being devolved to the Scottish parliament.

The losing side preferred a fully independent Scottish parliament where the people of Scotland decide their own future. We wanted a fairer and more just society. Scotland is typically more socialist and left-wing than in England.

The wrong side lost, but only for now, as we will win in the future. I hate the political system as it is, and Scotland is getting a bad deal. Scotland is a net contributor to the Union and yet Westminster makes it out that they are the ones sending money up to us. Yeah, that's after we send it down and then they send some of it back! I'm also tired of disgusting Westminster polices that are directly impacting my life and others around me.

 

[Manfred Belheim]

Why did Scotland lose? Because most people backed the Union. It's just that simple. A large number of people were duped into voting no due to Westminster's barrage of biased news stories, lies and smear. We were also promised devolution max if we voted no.

Or... they weren't duped, genuinely thought about it, and just don't share your view on the matter. It's a possibility. You have to get used to people not sharing your viewpoint in a democracy, you can't just claim that anyone who votes differently to you has been brainwashed, that's just insulting.

 

[Domen]

I noticed that Pangur Ban disappeared from the forum soon after the referendum. Maybe this thread will bring him back.

 

[gay_Aleks]

United Kingdoms of Sweden and Norway:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Union_between_Sweden_and_Norway

You had a very cool flag! Union Jack of Sweden and Norway:

Good lord this flag is ugly as sin.

 

[metatron]

Actually, it's slightly infamous. We call it the herring salad.

Sure from a heraldic point of view it's somewhat dubious, to say the least.
But otoh: Fun!

 

[Agent327]

We shall also add it to the list:
If white womenfolk had more than zero awareness of their privilege porposition 19 would have succeeded.
If white womenfolk had more than zero awareness of their privilege Merkel's chancellorship and her approach to the Euro crisis would be over.
If white womenfolk had more than zero awareness of their privilege Democrats would have to run actual Democrats instead of ineffective sexist phonies in the best case and Martha fracking Coakley in the worst.
[...]
If white womenfolk had more than zero awareness of their privilege Scotland would be independent now.


Yeah, but some Norwegians had this dumb, young, very male idea fueled by rabid nationalism.
Which was really... as i said... dumb and lead to horrible results. You know, beause small nations are weak and fail.
Sweden should really free Norway from its selfimposed, plightful, impoverished errant ways.
Because: Better together.

Btw: Are there any Dutch and Swiss people around?
Yes?
Well, guys...
I have some very good news for you...

Seeing your rant about white womenfolk, I'm afraid to ask what the good news might be...

The winning side preferred to preserve the Union and return to the status quo or voted no in hope of more powers being devolved to the Scottish parliament.

The losing side preferred a fully independent Scottish parliament where the people of Scotland decides their own future. We wanted a fairer and more just society. Scotland is typically more socialist and left-wing than in England.

The wrong side lost, but only for now, as we will win in the future. I hate the political system as it is, and Scotland is getting a bad deal. Scotland is a net contributor to the Union and yet Westminster makes it out that they are the ones sending money up to us. Yeah, that's after we send it down and then they send some of it back! I'm also tired of disgusting Westminster polices that are directly impacting my life and others around me.

I was under the impression Scottish Socialists actually opposed independence. Possibly I was duped though, who knows.

 

[Alba]

Or they weren't duped, genuinely thought about it, and just don't share your view on the matter. It's a possibility. You have to get used to people not sharing your viewpoint in a democracy, you can't just claim that anyone who votes differently to you has been brainwashed, that's just insulting.

Huh, so all my conversations and first-hand experience talking to people and listening to people's concerns means absolute nothing? There is a significant group of people who do feel duped, that's why Gordon Brown launched a petition to get 100,000 people to sign it so he can give it to 10 Downing Street, in hope they could discuss about the promises they made, never mind actually giving us them.

I find Westminster's lies very insulting. You obviously don't have enough information to form an opinion about what actually happened. The media were atrocious. The politicians were atrocious. We had two years of utter fear spouting out of the television, and through the newspapers, saying pensioners would lose their pensions, you would lose your jobs, you would lose your British passport, you only have 20 years worth of oil left, your oil is volatile and you can't handle it, your country will be volatile to an attack from the enemy because you'll have no army, your benefits will stop, your NHS will collapse, you'll be overrun by neo-Nazi nationalists, you can't keep the pound... Oh by the way, Alex Salmond is just like Robert Mugabe and Nicola Sturgeon doesn't know what a family structure is because she is childless. Your country is too small to be successful. The best one was from the leader of Scottish Labour, Johann Lamont; she said "We are not genetically programmed in Scotland to make political decisions".

That is very insulting! To make it worse, it actually taught some people to have very negative views and lowered their self-esteem. My friend who was undecided voted no in the end because "Scotland is bad, and it will always be bad, so I voted no". You could write a bloody book with multiple editions with all the crap that Westminster spun up.

People have a right to vote whichever way they want, Westminster should at least keep their promises they made to those who voted no.

 

[Arakhor]

Then get your 100,000 signatures and see what happens. I for one would have been interested in seeing Scotland becoming independent, but only to see how the SNP's stardust and moonshine promises would have worked in the real world. Only the serving government ever knows how to run the country's economy and even then they frequently don't do it that well, let alone for a whole new country coming into existence.

 

[Alba]

I think we've seen more than 100,000 signatures already. I'm unsure; I'll need to check that.

I actually preferred the SNP's inflated promises, it was positive, and even if we managed to get 75% of what they had promised through hard work then it would be worth it. I believe Scotland could actually be quite successful for a small country, and there was some great ideas put forward by both the SNP and the Green Party. There would be hiccups and problems but they would be our own hiccups and problems. It is way better than the doom and gloom coming out of Better Together. As I have said before, Scotland is a net contributor to the Union, so we more than pay our way already. I believe Scottish decisions are best made by the people who actually live here.

 

[Arakhor]

I will be interested to see how they handle Tam Dalziell's West Lothian question, but mechanically it will be difficult to arrange, which is all the more reason not to rush into anything. Trying to having snap legislation on an English assembly (etc.) smacks of political opportunism on the part of the Conservatives, especially so close to a general election.

 

[Kaitzilla]

The North will rise again!

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

I think the reason is there where more people who voted "No" than the number who voted "Yes".

 

[bhsup]

Well if that isn't an argument against FPTP, I don't know what is!

 

[Manfred Belheim]

I find Westminster's lies very insulting. You obviously don't have enough information to form an opinion about what actually happened. The media were atrocious. The politicians were atrocious. We had two years of utter fear spouting out of the television, and through the newspapers, saying pensioners would lose their pensions, you would lose your jobs, you would lose your British passport, you only have 20 years worth of oil left, your oil is volatile and you can't handle it, your country will be volatile to an attack from the enemy because you'll have no army, your benefits will stop, your NHS will collapse, you'll be overrun by neo-Nazi nationalists, you can't keep the pound...

And yet somehow you and millions of others saw through it all and knew exactly what was going on, enough to make up 45% of the vote? If the media and politicians managed brainwash an entire nation, then how come nearly half of you appear to know exactly what is going on and knew it all along? If almost every other person in a society knows they're being conned and can prove it, it's hard to imagine how that information wouldn't spread to the other half.

I remember similar arguments being put forward a few years ago when we had the referendum on "proportional representation". When most people voted against that I remember seeing the same sorts of posts on forums from people who voted on the losing side - baldly stating that everyone who voted "wrongly" did so because they were either morons or they swallowed scaremongering and propaganda without analysing it, while those who voted "correcty" were somehow magically immune to all that and could see the truth. I felt insulted then and I'm pretty sure if I lived in Scotland and had voted "No" I'd feel just as insulted now. Blanketly painting those who disagree with you as brainwashed morons is, at best, very unproductive.

 

[Manfred Belheim]

I actually preferred the SNP's inflated promises, it was positive, and even if we managed to get 75% of what they had promised through hard work then it would be worth it.

So inflated promises (aka "lies") are okay as long as they come from the side you agree with? Slight double standard in play.

 

[Alba]

There is only one newspaper in Scotland that was pro-yes - The Sunday Herald - yes, that's only a weekly newspaper. The other only place to get information that was less biased and backed up with more fact was on the internet. That's why there is a large disagreement between the young and the old. The younger generations had multiple sources to get information, while older generations relied on the pro-union media as their only source of information - newspapers and television programming.

The SNP's views could have been achieved - given time - they made more sense than the alternatives and they set the bar pretty high. That's why they are a popular party. They've done a good job. But you have got to remember, a vote for independence was not a vote for Alex Salmond or the SNP.

A vote for yes was a vote for positivity - something that is needed in this country. For a country that gave the world modern inventions and ideas, it's a little unusual to see such negativity you see from some Scots.

Not all people who voted no did so in fear or brainwashing, a large number of them thought deep down, that it was the right decision. But one thing I do know, the vast majority of no voters didn't vote for the status quo - they voted no in hope of devolution max with the strength and security of the United Kingdom.

 

[Arakhor]

But one thing I do know, the vast majority of no voters didn't vote for the status quo - they voted no in hope of devolution max with the strength and security of the United Kingdom.

You can't possibly know that. How did you speak or otherwise communicate with "the vast majority" of the two million No voters?

 

[Grisu]

Ah yes, the usual hunt for a scapegoat after a vote....happens almost every time. Foreigners, and people perceived as such, are often a welcome filler for that position...and womenfolk

By your own stats, there are 84% self-declared scots, right? Sounds like easily enough to force independence had they wanted to...

Btw: Are there any Dutch and Swiss people around?
Yes?
Well, guys...
I have some very good news for you...

Oh, really?

 

[GinandTonic]

Love how Salmond is going nuts demanding criminal charges for the people being told of the banks plans to leave Scotland if there was a yes vote. He wants criminal charges for the electorate being aware of the facts.

Really hard to put any positive spin on that.

 

[Alba]

You can't possibly know that. How did you speak or otherwise communicate with "the vast majority" of the two million no voters?

Because that's all they bleated on about, "devo max" this and "super devo" that. It was the core to their argument. Well, they aren't going to get any of those things. They lost the argument, and we lost the referendum. No winners, both losers.