Why Do You Hate The Byzantine Empire

[candle86]

yes but they where the original people there. Followed by the Dacians, then the Persians, then Macadeon, then Rome, then the Byzantine Empire, followed by the Ottomans followed by Turkey

 

[TheDS]

ok here is where im gonna blow your mind about what they actully did. The Byzantine Empire held back the Islamic conquest from eastern europe for 500 years, long enough for nations such as Hungry to have a fighting chance. They slowed down the Mogol invasions making the Anatolia a safe zone for refugees and giving Eastern Europe a chance. They where the center of trade anything going to or from Europe went through Constantinople. They where the cradle of the Early Christian Church. They laid the ground work in Nicea for what dates holiday's today fall on. Thats also in the Byzantine Empire. They where the last vestiage of advanced civilization while the rest of Europe fell into the dark ages, and into squallor, the Byzantines kept a watch at the door into Europe. IF the Byzantines hadn't been there many things would have been lost in truth. Sevral militray innovations and technologies, trade routes, civics, and sciences all where preserved in Constantinople. The modern thoughts of the emprire of decadance and uselessness only started in the mid 1700's. Before this point Byzantine Empire was known as the Eastern Roman Empire, Byzantine Empire was meant to degrade the memory and accomplishments of those people, and likly inspired by the HRE and the Papalcy who hated the fact the Romans of Constantinople could lay a claim to be the heirs of Rome.

Dude, this is an absolutely wonderful contribution and is exactly why I hate it when someone gets pissy about thread necromancy. I just learned about a dozen things I never knew. Thank you for sharing this. And btw, it also proves my point; the general public doesn't know about that. They don't even know Hungary speaks Mongolian. I only learned that this year.

As to the other posts; the best guess I can give you why we choose one over another has to do with popularity. Somewhere someone took a poll and the Thracians and Byzantines lost out.

 

[candle86]

That would have to do with the Eastern Roman Empire being a footnote in World History books, because people would rather read about the Dark ages of Europe, or the Arab conquest of the middle east and North Africa. But those men from Constantinople where a proud and brave people, the last vestige of Civilization in a time of barbarism, strife, and plagues, Byzantines stood fast, and held onto Civilization. By 1000AD Europe came out of the Dark Ages for the most part, and looked to Byzantine's for knowledge. The reason they feel was internal strife, and overspending, the same problem that collapsed classical Rome 1000 years earlier. Had they better managed there Empire, the Turks wouldn't have maintained a foothold, but due to poor management and strife inside there own empire they where tore apart by the Turks.

 

[Link]

Were it not for the bubonic plague, Justinian would have reconquered the entire are of the Western Roman Empire.

 

[candle86]

Yep to bad he couldn't id rather have Rome in Western Europe today than most of the contries there lol

 

[Kyriakos]

I guess the Empire will be in an expansion. Better this way since i'll probably wait till then to get the game, since it will be in horrible state in the vanilla version..

 

[B-29 Bomber]

Were it not for the bubonic plague, Justinian would have reconquered the entire are of the Western Roman Empire.

dude the black death was during the 1300s. Justinian's reign was during 527-565.

 

[Aramazd]

dude the black death was during the 1300s. Justinian's reign was during 527-565.

The Plague of Justinian occured during Justinians reign and is thought to be bubonic plague.

 

[Dachs]

Were it not for the bubonic plague, Justinian would have reconquered the entire are of the Western Roman Empire.

There's no indication that he even planned to. Would've been a dumb idea, too, since the stuff he did grab was relatively easily defensible and, more to the point, worth conquering. Northern Spain...wasn't. Neither was northern Francia. Southern Francia, maybe, but it was indefensible. Britain was an unholy mess. Pannonia was definitely not worth it. The plan was perfectly good as-is.

 

[The Leviathan]

There's no indication that he even planned to. Would've been a dumb idea, too, since the stuff he did grab was relatively easily defensible and, more to the point, worth conquering. Northern Spain...wasn't. Neither was northern Francia. Southern Francia, maybe, but it was indefensible. Britain was an unholy mess. Pannonia was definitely not worth it. The plan was perfectly good as-is.

Justinian was all about restoring the empire. His ultimate goal was to reconquer Rome and all the realms that were under the Western Roman Empire control. The only thing that stopped his reconquest was the Plague of Justinian (the bubonic plague), He actually conquered Italy, parts of Hispania (Southern part), North Africa, and all Roman holdings in the Mediterranean after he came to rule. It's pretty clear that his intent was the restore the entirety of the Western Roman empire.

Also I would love the Byzantine Empire to be in the next expansion but Honestly I'd much rather see Spain or the Mongols in this version before them.

 

[Xen]

I'm a big proponent of the Byzantine Empire, for one.

 

[Dachs]

Justinian was all about restoring the empire. His ultimate goal was to reconquer Rome and all the realms that were under the Western Roman Empire control. The only thing that stopped his reconquest was the Plague of Justinian (the bubonic plague), He actually conquered Italy, parts of Hispania (Southern part), North Africa, and all Roman holdings in the Mediterranean after he came to rule. It's pretty clear that his intent was the restore the entirety of the Western Roman empire.

And what exactly are you basing all this on? His written-out plans, which don't exist? The authority of Prokopios, a well-known liar, especially as far as Ioustinianos and the royal family went? His propagandizing, which is about as accurate a guide to actual intentions as you can get amirite?

Look, I'm well aware of the territory his armies actually ended up capturing. Virtually all of his expeditions in the West were designed as low-cost expeditions to acquire good sources of revenue that wouldn't be too hard to defend. Africa was ruled by the Vandals, who exhibited some of the most colossal military incompetence in defending their territory that you can possibly imagine. Southern Iberia wasn't even fully controlled by the Visigoths at the time, in all probability, and didn't take much effort to conquer or to defend. Italy was ruled by the Ostrogoths, who were having serious fissures in their political leadership and who were under major military pressure from both northeast and northwest. Outside of that, the only stuff worth conquering, economically, was the nascent manufactures and agricultural center in the Middle Rhine and Ardennes, which you couldn't get to without destroying the Frankish state, which was impractical.

A full-blown conquest of the West, even if it had been within his resources (and it wasn't, and he was smart enough to know that), would have required an effort commensurate with a total gutting of the Eastern field armies. And when the inevitable Sasanian opportunistic invasion came, the Byzantines would have been screwed up the ass even more than they were in OTL. Giving up Syria and Anatolia and the Levant for a not-very-good shot at conquering some useless Gallic and Iberian territory would've been idiotic, and Ioustinianos wasn't stupid.

 

[Xwarq]

The Byzantine Empire is the Roman Empire

 

[brianshapiro]

I hate the Byzantines because they smell like cheese.

 

[Centurio]

That would have to do with the Eastern Roman Empire being a footnote in World History books, because people would rather read about the Dark ages of Europe, or the Arab conquest of the middle east and North Africa. But those men from Constantinople where a proud and brave people, the last vestige of Civilization in a time of barbarism, strife, and plagues, Byzantines stood fast, and held onto Civilization. By 1000AD Europe came out of the Dark Ages for the most part, and looked to Byzantine's for knowledge. The reason they feel was internal strife, and overspending, the same problem that collapsed classical Rome 1000 years earlier. Had they better managed there Empire, the Turks wouldn't have maintained a foothold, but due to poor management and strife inside there own empire they where tore apart by the Turks.

It is true that the Byzantine Empire is overlooked, and that it had contributed much to Europe. I, myself, find it very sad above all else that history has labeled this empire incorrectly. Historically, nobody called them Byzantines or the empire Byzantine. That is a modern label given because their capital was built in a region we call Byzantium. The Byzantines addressed themselves as Romaios, the Hellenized form of Romanus, or Roman. They viewed themselves -legitimately- as the Romans, and as such, we forget just how much they earned that label. While the rest of Europe forsook bathing and education for violence and squalor (not voluntarily, of course) the Romaioi kept Roman tradition alive with all the same cultural prowess, construction ability, and military organization of the original Empire on their side. While they did share the name and infrastructure of the old Romans, they maintained a very Greek attitude and Hellenic culture; they spoke Greek, valued personal hygiene, and wrote and thought like Greeks. For this reason, the Byzantines are a civilization all their own, the ultimate culmination of Greco-Roman culture.

As a side note, I love how the Byzantine Empire was a derivative Civ of Rome in Civ4: BtS.

Post-Script: I just read Dachs' posts and I agree with his side of the Justinian argument. When one looks at the original Roman Empire, and how it expanded, Gaul was only added because Julius Caesar need to conquer a large swathe of land for political reasons. Other than -perhaps- some mineral resources, Gaul and Northern Spain lack much of anything valuable to a trade power like the Roman Empire. I think that Justinian had conquered enough territory for one life. If anything, I think he would have spent the remainder of his life ensuring that the provinces he conquered were secure and ready for his successors. The Mediterranean is indeed a great font of wealth, and with such wealth there is little need to conquer more: from the Nile one attains food, from Athens knowledge, and from Rome and Carthage the boundless fruits of international trade. On top of all those lovely prizes sat Constantinople, the jewel of medieval Europe, a little slice of Roman heaven, an oasis amongst the shattered remains of a once-great empire.

 

[TheChanger]

wow, thread necromancy at its finest.

but on topic, i also really like the byzantine empire, but in civ 5 there is already Turkey, and i cant see both civs occupying the same niche, so to speak. i mean, its Istanbul not Constantinople now

 

[The Leviathan]

wow, thread necromancy at its finest.

but on topic, i also really like the byzantine empire, but in civ 5 there is already Turkey, and i cant see both civs occupying the same niche, so to speak. i mean, its Istanbul not Constantinople now

The same niche?

Byzantine culture, weaponry, civilization, langauge, religion etc is NOTHING like the Ottoman Turks

The only thing they shared was Anatolia and that is because the Turks conquered the Byzantines.

 

[Dachs]

wow, thread necromancy at its finest.

It's not a necro on this subforum if it's been less than a week...

but on topic, i also really like the byzantine empire, but in civ 5 there is already Turkey, and i cant see both civs occupying the same niche, so to speak. i mean, its Istanbul not Constantinople now

Virtually all of the city names in "Arabia" are in locations shared by "Spain", "Babylon", and "Egypt". I suppose we should probably ditch the Arabians too, huh?

 

[Link]

It's not a necro on this subforum if it's been less than a week...

This is actually a 4 year old thread. it was ressurected a couple pages back.

 

[Kyriakos]

Doesnt matter, a forum about a history-based game should have at least one thread about the Byzantine Empire