Why does everyone hate me?

[dexters]

Well, thats' why you NEVER connect that second lux to your trade network BEFORE trading out the original. Only then you connect the surplus. Problem solved.

A lux is 5 extra pop points to the AI (playing on Cheiftain happiness settings) - empire wide.

Luxes no longer have the same weight they used to have in Civ3 with its huge multiplier possibilites with a market or Civ4, both of which affect each city. Most of the time, they become repeat customers and you can charge them for the next 30 turns. You can also wage economic war by witholding a repeat trade later on once they become reliant on your luxury for happiness, especially those 'friends' who ramp up their conquests later on and are heavily dependent on any happiness resource they can find.

I find once I allowed myself to mentally be ok with giving away free luxuries to friends, my diplomatic game has improved greatly, because you're actually signalling to the game in concrete ways that you are a friend to them. None of that roleplay stuff where you pretend to be their friend and make up a story why that was the case.

Being scrooge mcduck over 240 gold or maybe even only 7 gpt for 30 turns is not worth it. And oftentimes, the trading opportunity is not present anyways.

 

[gozpel]

Get attacked by Rome and they kill a worker and 2 warriors in a sneak attack, kill their units and after a while they want a white peace. They don't accept one gold for you in that peacedeal. Reject it and Ghandi will be crying that I am a warmonger.

Just too silly.

 

[apocalypse105]

Well I am gonne say it once more as long as they don't gonne change the AI typ in gods and king we have the same issue

a AI that is trying to win the game and is playing like a human only a bad human


Doesn't seem funn at all

 

[black213]

What's untrue about it? If you agree to a declaration of Friendship and they ask for a free resource (and they will) and you refuse, they will hold it against you for the rest of the game.

When they ask for a resource, press ESC. You won't have to give the resource and you don't get a negative diplo modifier.

 

[apocalypse105]

No, you are hated (or feared) for invading other nations. Apparently, a whole lot of them. And conquerors have been saying "but he started it" for thousands of years. I'm not surprised the AIs are skeptical of your earnest desire for peace after surveying the smoking ruins of your former enemies...



Yes, some civs are deceptive, and will pretend to be your friend until they see no further advantage to it or sense a weakness to exploit. Just like humans.



Not so much once you take time to learn how it works and think about how it applies to your own game. It becomes a lot of fun, then.

This isn't starcraft where I like the AI beating me down with his numerous units.

In civ 5 they are all warmongers and backstabbers doesn't seem funn at all

diplomacy makes you feel you are playing throughough history now I just feel like I am playing the newest real time strategy game

 

[KmDubya]

The diplomacy is not hard to figure out.

1.) You get one free declaration of war. More than one and you are a warmonger. Using your one free one on a city state counts. The warmonger hate is high with the pacifist leaders like Ghandi and the Thai guy.

2.) If you make a DOF with someone you need to proove your friendship by giving a luxury if they ask, by going to war if they ask and in not trading with their enemies.

3.) Don't sign DOF with everyone. You will end up dealing with someone's enemy and both will dislike you and denounce you as a disloyal friend.

4.) If someone offers you a peace deal that is even or better and you do not accept it you get warmonger hate.

5.) If you take someone's last city, you will get warmonger hate. This applies to city states as well.

It actually makes sense and feels realistic if you just understand the rules. If you are loyal to your friends they will not denounce you. Just identify who your friends and enemies are and stick to that. Bouncing back and forth and making deals with everyone will make everyone hate you.

In CiV "You're either with us or against us"

 

[Brichals]

The diplomacy is not hard to figure out.

1.) You get one free declaration of war. More than one and you are a warmonger. Using your one free one on a city state counts. The warmonger hate is high with the pacifist leaders like Ghandi and the Thai guy.

2.) If you make a DOF with someone you need to proove your friendship by giving a luxury if they ask, by going to war if they ask and in not trading with their enemies.

3.) Don't sign DOF with everyone. You will end up dealing with someone's enemy and both will dislike you and denounce you as a disloyal friend.

4.) If someone offers you a peace deal that is even or better and you do not accept it you get warmonger hate.

5.) If you take someone's last city, you will get warmonger hate. This applies to city states as well.

It actually makes sense and feels realistic if you just understand the rules. If you are loyal to your friends they will not denounce you. Just identify who your friends and enemies are and stick to that. Bouncing back and forth and making deals with everyone will make everyone hate you.

In CiV "You're either with us or against us"

Good summary. There's of course the negative diplo hits for building the same wonders and settling close but this is realistic and how a human feels. I like the Civ5 diplomacy and feel it's unfortunate that it never really got figured out in general before the expansion comes, where it will presumably change, and maybe become more exploitable like in Civ4.

 

[dexters]

The diplomacy is not hard to figure out.

1.) You get one free declaration of war. More than one and you are a warmonger. Using your one free one on a city state counts. The warmonger hate is high with the pacifist leaders like Ghandi and the Thai guy.

It's not an on-off switch. You've kind of hinted at it, but this sounds like it's one big harsh stick. AI's will react differently to your actions depending on their variables and what other positive modifiers may be in play.

Co-op war modifier (fought against a common enemy) can actually mask a lot of warmonger hate for avery long time.

2.) If you make a DOF with someone you need to proove your friendship by giving a luxury if they ask, by going to war if they ask and in not trading with their enemies.

I wouldn't use 'proving' in this context. Civ5 uses the free gift mechanic as a signal of your friendship. It's objective and measurable.

This along with the DoF itself are things the game can see and control.

Roleplayers used to like to do assymetrical things like dumping a bunch of resources on a weak civ for free, giving a Civ they are protecting rights of passage, blocking enemy units from reaching their territory etc. And weave a story of 'helping' a friend.

While you can still do a lot of that, Civ5 also relies on tangible things like DoF and accepting requests of gifts as measurable things that earn you brownie points.

I should also add that one of the features in G&K, telling your friend someone is working against them or is about to DoW probably works toward that as well. Players have control and choice whether to tell or not. I also assume it will have positive effects to the victim but quite possibly some negative effects on the agressors if there's a system in place to find out who ratted them out.

I should also add that AFAIK, there is no penalty for declining a co-op war; but there are penalties for agreeing to co-op wars 10 turns in advance then not following through with it.

 

[lemming3k]

The diplomacy is not hard to figure out.

1.) You get one free declaration of war. More than one and you are a warmonger. Using your one free one on a city state counts. The warmonger hate is high with the pacifist leaders like Ghandi and the Thai guy.

2.) If you make a DOF with someone you need to proove your friendship by giving a luxury if they ask, by going to war if they ask and in not trading with their enemies.

3.) Don't sign DOF with everyone. You will end up dealing with someone's enemy and both will dislike you and denounce you as a disloyal friend.

4.) If someone offers you a peace deal that is even or better and you do not accept it you get warmonger hate.

5.) If you take someone's last city, you will get warmonger hate. This applies to city states as well.

It actually makes sense and feels realistic if you just understand the rules. If you are loyal to your friends they will not denounce you. Just identify who your friends and enemies are and stick to that. Bouncing back and forth and making deals with everyone will make everyone hate you.

In CiV "You're either with us or against us"

Nice, my well constructed reply had an internet mishap and vanished.
All I'll say is the AI doesn't follow most of those rules at all. It just denounces and declares war with reckless abandon for no reason, and the rest of the world has little intelligence with which to say "oh, I wonder WHY they did that?".
And who would accept a straight peace after enduring that abuse for years, mobilizing an entire army and being on the verge of taking their cities? Fair enough if nothing has happened, but in some cases offering peace is a desperate attempt to survive(in a war started by the AI itself) - this should of course be reflected in the offer. An automatic warmonger penalty for the opposition refusing is nonsense, you can't desperately beg for survival and offer nothing. Not even 10 gold is offered, and yet that's probably the one rule they strictly adhere to when the "fair" value of a peace deal would be very situational.

 

[KmDubya]

lemming,

I am not saying that it is right, I was just listing what actually happens. Knowing these you can plan and anticipate the AI reaction to events.

If your plan is to attack and conquer everyone it might not matter but for a hybrid war and peace victory it can help. Even then it would pay to become friends with one warmonger AI. Join all of their wars and be there friend until only the two of you survive. This way you will have one friend throughout.

In the eyes of the AI a straight up peace deal is fair. Failure to take a fair peace gets a diplo hit. The AI that started the war also gets hit with the warmonger diplo hit if it is not its first war.

The biggest one to avoid is dealing with the enemies of your friends. This is what starts the chain reaction denounce. Most players will deal luxuries to any and every civ as well as do research agreements with everyone they can. This will just about guarantee a chain denouncement as you deal with everyone's enemy. Then they come to the forums and complain about broken diplomacy.

What worked in CIV - oscillating wars, free religion, and small gifts - does not work in CiV. In CIV it was easy to control, the values were clearly listed and as long as you stayed above a known value for every civ you would never be attacked. In CiV there is more mystery and in my opinion more logic. In real life you have to stand for something, trying to appease everyone just makes you a fake and weak.

You need to be a true friend and a true enemy.

 

[Heerlo]

That said, it's entirely possible to stay on good terms with at least most of the world - you're almost always going to have some friction with neighbors, and some civs are just hard to get along with, but as long as you aren't out warmongering or causing other havoc, you can keep good relations with many of the other civs.

That sounds like what's been going on with me.I've been being peaceful mostly and only declared war once(and that was to save a city state), and I'm not sure, but I think for a while everyone was friendly with me.

 

[lemming3k]

lemming,

I am not saying that it is right, I was just listing what actually happens. Knowing these you can plan and anticipate the AI reaction to events.

If your plan is to attack and conquer everyone it might not matter but for a hybrid war and peace victory it can help. Even then it would pay to become friends with one warmonger AI. Join all of their wars and be there friend until only the two of you survive. This way you will have one friend throughout.

In the eyes of the AI a straight up peace deal is fair. Failure to take a fair peace gets a diplo hit. The AI that started the war also gets hit with the warmonger diplo hit if it is not its first war.

The biggest one to avoid is dealing with the enemies of your friends. This is what starts the chain reaction denounce. Most players will deal luxuries to any and every civ as well as do research agreements with everyone they can. This will just about guarantee a chain denouncement as you deal with everyone's enemy. Then they come to the forums and complain about broken diplomacy.

I wasn't afforded the luxury of a peaceful game. I was denounced for nothing at all by two nations in the early game, one of which then went on to declare war on me.
This then made every world nation "guarded" towards me before I'd even met them. The situation was then compounded by being spammed with nonsense peace messages as the nation had no offensive capability and they refused some extremely reasonable counters given the situation. The AI's inability to notice that is sorely lacking compared to previous versions - as I recall Civ 3 and 4 the AI got VERY desperate when it was massively losing a war, and rightly so!

What worked in CIV - oscillating wars, free religion, and small gifts - does not work in CiV. In CIV it was easy to control, the values were clearly listed and as long as you stayed above a known value for every civ you would never be attacked. In CiV there is more mystery and in my opinion more logic. In real life you have to stand for something, trying to appease everyone just makes you a fake and weak.

You need to be a true friend and a true enemy.

Sorry but it just doesn't work that way. I tried to form a 3vs3 with the nations that hated the same ones as me, joining their wars even though I didn't want to, forming research pacts - and it still fell apart because of denouncements and nonsense peace offers causing penalties - although this had already been set into motion before any friendships were even formed.
I haven't oscillated at all, in fact I use larger world sizes so I don't even physically meet many nations until the mid-late game, if ever. I'm usually focused on one or two local-ish nations, which is exactly what's happened here.
As far as I can tell diplomacy is based upon giving away everything you have for free and expecting nothing but denouncements for no reason.
In terms of realistic actions that IS broken diplomacy; after all if I made such demands I'd be refused too, it really shouldn't be a surprise to the AI that a human behaves exactly as expected. To be a strong ally you have to bring something to the table too.