Why does everyone want Confucianism out?

[Plankhead]

There are a lot of people in the world who identify with Confucianism as their own personal religious belief system, and saying that it's just philosophy is insulting to them. Take out all the stories and mythology from other religions, and they're basically just philosophy too.

 

[Anima Croatorum]

China bashing?

 

[Deathlord_32]

The reason many people want to get rid of confusianism is because in a sence it's not a religion. They dont worship anything. it's just guidelines on how a person should act and live. It doesnt say there is a god, and it doesnt say there is not a god. it's just how a person should act. (forgive me if i am wrong, thats just what i learned in school)

 

[Anima Croatorum]

and its the same stuff any god is about, a moral codex is the sole reason for any religion to exist.

 

[thtycho]

As far as I know, Confucianism is a big set of teachings and thoughts (or philsophy, in short) of how to achieve perfect personality. (Also see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confucianism.) There was no god or spiritual leader. No rituals, no before-life and no after-life was mentioned. I do not recall even karma was mentioned. People respected Confucius very much as a great teacher and philsopher but not as a prophet or alike. The teachings were just sooo popular that even the governments at the time adopted them as their discipline. Over time, many "students" of Confucianism, but not Confucius himself, "declared themselves opposed to the Buddhist and Taoist belief systems." (See Wikipedia again.) I think these were why historicans considered Confucianism as a religion/cult. Nonetheless, "religion" also has the definition of "a cause, principle, or system of beliefs held to with ardor and faith" (see http://www.m-w.com/dictionary/religion,) then Confucianism is a religion in that context.

So, to answer your question, well, I don't know

 

[dh_epic]

Religion is a fuzzy target. I think Confucianism qualities. But then again, I think Marxism and "Objectivism" (most misleading name ever) have a religious quality -- even if they make no claims about an afterlife or the supernatual.

 

[Penitent]

What is religion if not a way to spoon-feed philosophy to the masses?

 

[Master Kodama]

On another thread I have already expressed my thoughts as to why removing Confucianism makes no sense, and why it is a fitting addition to the game, whether or not you consider it to "technically" be a religion:

People on the forums keep saying this, and it bugs me because I think they're largely operating under false assumptions and misunderstandings. While Confucianism is generally not considered a religion, it has functioned historically (and on many other levels) in a way which makes it VERY appropriate to include it in Civ.

To give one example, during the Choson period in Korea (1392-1910), a very strict adherence to Neo-Confucianist doctrine was adopted and propagated throughout the country, creating what in civ game terms was essentially a Confucian Theocracy. During the preceding Koryo period, Buddhism had been held in high regard, on equal footing with Confucianism, one dominating the realm of the spiritual/supernatural and the other dominating the secular/everyday world. However, during the Choson era of Neo-Confucian ascendency, Buddhism and its teachings were ridiculed and attacked by the establishment, with the Confucian principles and practices being held up as the one true and essential doctrine. Though it was an age of great cultural and societal achievement, it was not a very tolerant one. Choson Korea as a nation refused to talk or deal with any other countries besides China, and no foreigners were allowed into the country, nor did anyone go outside of the country -- the rest of the world, filled with heathens, just wasn't Confucian enough to merit dealing with. In addition to the attacks on Buddhism, Koreans who converted to Christianity during this period were also subject to harsh persecution for their deviance from the state philosphy.

So much for existing side-by-side. Have you ever heard of a Buddhist regime that was that extreme? Or for that matter, a TAOIST one? How many times has a strict, intolerant Buddhist or Taoist theocracy dominated a nation in such a fashion? I'm pretty sure I can count the number on the fingers of one elbow. Not that I would recommend removing either Taoism or Buddhism, but think about what religions are in Civ4 and what they represent.

Also, I can't really think of anything that disqualifies Confucianism from being a religion, other than the fact that many people don't consider it one, which is pretty slim criteria.

 

[Kenric af Grashen]

to me all the "religions" that come with the game are fine. however, if i removed any religion i'd remove Judism, christianity or islam (if i wanted monotheism i'd pick atenism i don't know why people are so ready and willing to get rid of confusism maybe its through lack of understanding and thus no real interest in keeping it

 

[LAnkou]

and its the same stuff any god is about, a moral codex is the sole reason for any religion to exist.

well, no.

As other people said, it's about life after death, the creation of life, worshipping a god and think that aren't moral but spiritual (in the holy meaning of the term)

 

[Kenric af Grashen]

christianity doesn't have a moral code as such, all you have to do is believe that Jesus is God's son and all your sins will be forgiven, and thusly you will go to heven even if you do not live rightously. seems horrible to me imagine going to same place as murderers because you both believe the same thing regardless of wether you or they were good or not

 

[Red Door]

christianity doesn't have a moral code as such, all you have to do is believe that Jesus is God's son and all your sins will be forgiven, and thusly you will go to heven even if you do not live rightously. seems horrible to me imagine going to same place as murderers because you both believe the same thing regardless of wether you or they were good or not

That is so completely wrong. Its not even funny. Plenty of Christians are going to hell. Your sins are forgiven when you get baptized, you compensate for your sin, or you go to confession. You just cant be forgiven. It also does have a moral code. Its called the Ten Commandments!!!

 

[dh_epic]

well, no.

As other people said, it's about life after death, the creation of life, worshipping a god and think that aren't moral but spiritual (in the holy meaning of the term)

This is pretty chauvenistic. Buddhism doesn't have a God in the traditional meaning of the word. Taoism makes no specific claim about life after death. And while the western religions tend to embody dualism -- the belief in a seperateness of spirit and matter -- many of the Eastern religions believe they are one and the same.

And holy, of course, depends on what religion you are.

 

[LAnkou]

Well, i meaned that religions are more than just a moral code...

It isn't a AND list, but a OR list...
I didn't find a better word than holy...I was betray by my english!!! it must be because i'm french. Damn english!!!

 

[Kenric af Grashen]

i have spoken to many christians about this they way i describe it seems to be common consensus amongst them.

and the whole philosophy behind jesus dying on the cross supports this,

example people who were born before jesus who were babtized in the time of jesus by John may have commited many sins before they were babtized, they were forgiven regardless of they're backgrounds now i was babtized when i was a couple of months old does this mean i am to be given less chances at making mistakes than the people who are babtized later in life. now the evil people i talk about are the mass murderers who "repent" before execution at the hands of the whatever state they're from. these people will by decree of the church of said state and your admission (through confession) go to heaven. THIS IS NOT A GOOD THING.

People should be judged on the lives they live as a whloe not just on the good or bad things they do since they're last confession.

You just cant be forgiven

forgiveness is one of the main things christianity teaches if not even your own god can abide by their own teachings then its a VERY messed up religion

edit: in response to AlCosta 15

 

[Plankhead]

If you think religion has to include worship of a god, life after death, and creation of life, you'll make a lot of people mad. There are a lot of perfectly dignified religions which have none of this. Buddhism, Wicca (there's the concept of deity, but very little else), Taoism, New Age, CONFUCIANISM, and some Shamanic traditions.

 

[upthorn]

Actually, Buddhism is to Hindu what Christianity is to Judaism.

The Buddha was raised Hindu, and all of the Hindu gods are present in the Orthodox faith. In fact, in the Buddhist texts, there are scenes in which the Buddha was tried by Hindu deities.

However a number of Buddhist sects have formed through the years that kind of gloss over that, and just focus on the Buddha as the object of worship, most notably Zen Buddhism.

Anyway, while Confucianism isn't about worship of deities or such, it is a philosophy and moral codex, and it was the state religion of China for quite a while. And while there may not be any overt mentions of karma or spirit, if people weren't spiritual, they would care little or nothing about how they ought to behave.

 

[catwhowalksbyhi]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sa~Craig
christianity doesn't have a moral code as such, all you have to do is believe that Jesus is God's son and all your sins will be forgiven, and thusly you will go to heven even if you do not live rightously. seems horrible to me imagine going to same place as murderers because you both believe the same thing regardless of wether you or they were good or not

That is so completely wrong. Its not even funny. Plenty of Christians are going to hell. Your sins are forgiven when you get baptized, you compensate for your sin, or you go to confession. You just cant be forgiven. It also does have a moral code. Its called the Ten Commandments!!!

Christianity does indeed have a moral code, but it is one that all of us violate. That makes us all sinners and in need of salvation. Where the different groups of Christians dissagree is how we get forgiveness, as well as some of the particulars of the moral code. While I agree with the first that no one can do anything on his own to be forgiven of sin, I still say that we have a moral code we are supposed to live up to and that it was breaking that code that got us into trouble in the first place.

That being said, religion in general is a bit difficult to define. Trying to include all its complexities in a game is foolish and just leads to problems. If Confusianists don't have another religion they subscribe to, than it can be considered a religion. If they do, however, belong to another religion, then you can legitimately reject it as such. Since I am not personally familiar with those who follow this system of thought, I can give it no further analysis.

 

[Robo Magic Man]

Frankly, I have to agree with every statement here, except the ones denying that confucianism is a religion. However, they're right in the respect that Confucianism makes few connections to a spiritual person/place/thing. I would have to say that confucianism and buddhism are religions because they are philosophies on life. Unitarianism (a religion that branched from christianity but mainly focuses on unity, peace, and acceptance regardless of spiritual beliefs) can be the same way if a Unitarian is atheist. However, many unitarians believe in god and a divine jesus as well. I like the idea that LAnkou pointed out: It's an OR list. Religion has a very broad definition pertaining, in my opinion, to any philosophy that a group of people live by, and identify themselves with. Even cults count, no matter how creepy and suicidal they often are.

 

[slothman]

They want it removed because it is the only religion, in the game, that can be gotten if you do not have mysticism.

I read on Wikipedia and "Code of Laws" does seem to match.
I would define a religion as something you have faith in with no real proof.
For example, I have faith that science will be able to,
someday, prove everything we know.
It may not be able to but I hope and have faith it does.
Confucianism Might does seem to be more of a philosophy but maybe someone can say stuff that is faith-required.