Will Japan be changed?

[Cissnei]

Will Japan be changed?
I am a Japan player and i love playing Japan.
I think she is very underpowered in late eras and it shouldnt be like this at all. I think they should remove Zero and replace it with some late game building or better unit.
I also think Bushido is a very poor ability. It works good to defend and attack in early game but is useless later on.
I dont like how Japan has domination victory priority, it doesnt receive any science or culture bonuses. I think Japan should have alot of cultural bonuses and culture victory should be its priority
I think Japan should be reworked alot. I also wish Japan had female leader (i am girl and prefer playing as girls) but i guess that's not possible T－T
Post your opinions...

 

[seancolorado]

The thing is, literally every great civilization in history was good at everything.

There is nothing wrong with Japan having domination priority. I think everybody knows how marvelous they were culturally and scientifically, but it's a video game where we are forced to create enough distinctions so civs are not so similar to one another

 

[ImperialChaos]

They should just overhaul every civ. Japan is probably my favorite civ in Civ V but with the autocracy or order tenets introduced in BNW they should be fine in the late game now.

 

[Cissnei]

they dont care about Japan. its one of weakest civilizations right now but they wont change her

 

[Homusubi]

I agree that it should be changed. Indeed, when I made the Japanese Civ Pack mod, I gave the Samurai 24 strength and replaced the Zero with the Kajiya UB.

On the subject of female leaders, Japan has no valid ones that I can think of. The closest I can get is Tomoe Gozen, and she's semi-mythical and not that well known.

Keep Bushido the same, just change the Zero and upgrade the Samurai. I have nothing against Japan being a domination civ, despite its significant cultural achievements, but I think that the Zero is unfair. There are so many things that were unique to Japan, and yet they referenced a period in history which the country would rather forget about.

 

[trexeric]

There are so many things that were unique to Japan, and yet they referenced a period in history which the country would rather forget about.

Well, same with Germany and the panzer.

 

[Theoderic]

they dont care about Japan. its one of weakest civilizations right now but they wont change her

As it was in civ4!

 

[Hans Castorp]

Fairly sure this should be on one of the several existing threads discussing existing civ overhauls, but fine, if we are going to play...
I agree, Japan would be worth overhauling. Bushido got nerfed by the new combat system in G&K and went from being a ridiculously strong UA in Vanilla to a fairly average one. Samurai is fine. No civ deserves the sheer uselessness of a fighter UU, so the Zero should go. Any number of fine ideas for what to replace stuff with out there. Likelihood of any significant change this time round: 'Zero'.

 

[Loaf Warden]

On the subject of female leaders, Japan has no valid ones that I can think of. The closest I can get is Tomoe Gozen, and she's semi-mythical and not that well known.

Well, there were some ruling empresses, hundreds and hundreds of years ago. They're hardly notable compared to Tokugawa Ieyasu or the Meiji Emperor, though. (Of course, they didn't go with either of those for Civ V. They went with Oda Nobunaga, who never ruled the country. )

 

[Yzman]

they dont care about Japan. its one of weakest civilizations right now but they wont change her

Japan is not even close to one of the weakest civilizations. Bushido is also a good ability. The only problem with bushido is that it doesn't get any benefit from populism. I really hope this isn't another topic about someone being overly patriotic to their native country and wanting them to be overhauled in every way until they are overpowered. Seems we have quite a few of those lately...

 

[Unresolved]

Japan is not even close to one of the weakest civilizations. Bushido is also a good ability. The only problem with bushido is that it doesn't get any benefit from populism. I really hope this isn't another topic about someone being overly patriotic to their native country and wanting them to be overhauled in every way until they are overpowered. Seems we have quite a few of those lately...

Japan is indeed a very weak civ right now. Bushido looks good in theory, but the damage penalty for wounded units is too low. The minimum damage a unit can do is 70% of its normal. If they reverted this number back to 50%(which it used to be), Bushido would be more useful. The Zero is absolutely useless considering how interception is bugged. The Samurai comes in a terrible part of the tech tree and requires you to play sub-optimally to even use it.

 

[ScottMcPwn]

A female Japanese leader?
Unless the devs start adding anime characters, I really don't see any that are truly viable.

 

[Hans Castorp]

Japan is indeed a very weak civ right now. Bushido looks good in theory, but the damage penalty for wounded units is too low. The minimum damage a unit can do is 70% of its normal. If they reverted this number back to 50%(which it used to be), Bushido would be more useful. The Zero is absolutely useless considering how interception is bugged. The Samurai comes in a terrible part of the tech tree and requires you to play sub-optimally to even use it.

Samurai keeps its great general bonus on upgrade, though, right? It's been a while since I played Japan - for the other reasons you outline - but I've never thought Samurai a terrible UU as UUs go.

 

[Yzman]

Japan is indeed a very weak civ right now. Bushido looks good in theory, but the damage penalty for wounded units is too low. The minimum damage a unit can do is 70% of its normal. If they reverted this number back to 50%(which it used to be), Bushido would be more useful. The Zero is absolutely useless considering how interception is bugged. The Samurai comes in a terrible part of the tech tree and requires you to play sub-optimally to even use it.

When did it get changed to 70%? As of G&K, it was 10% reduction for every 20 hit points lost, down to 1 HP. This meant that at 1 HP, you would be fighting very slightly above 50%. Where was this capped?

The samurai is great and should be spammed during the age it comes in. Just because the unit it replaces is bad, does not make the samurai bad for being a replacement.

The zero is useless I will agree, however so are a variety of other civs UUs. Japan can't be the worst because of that alone.

 

[whyidie]

Fairly sure this should be on one of the several existing threads discussing existing civ overhauls, but fine, if we are going to play...
I agree, Japan would be worth overhauling. Bushido got nerfed by the new combat system in G&K and went from being a ridiculously strong UA in Vanilla to a fairly average one. Samurai is fine. No civ deserves the sheer uselessness of a fighter UU, so the Zero should go. Any number of fine ideas for what to replace stuff with out there. Likelihood of any significant change this time round: 'Zero'.

Agreed on all points.

Bushido was great in Vanilla but has very little impact now.

Zero is probably one of the least used UU's.

Likelihood of change....can't top how you put it

 

[Unresolved]

Samurai keeps its great general bonus on upgrade, though, right? It's been a while since I played Japan - for the other reasons you outline - but I've never thought Samurai a terrible UU as UUs go.

The bonuses of a Samurai are fine. But it's placement in Steel is what kills it. The best(read: strategist players/min-maxers/etc...) strategies involve beelining to Education->Scientific Theory->Plastics while using archers/artillery to take cities. Longswords and Swordsmen have long been discussed in other threads because they require iron and they're outside of the optimal tech path. Since you don't need to research steel until you go for Plastics, you end up researching Steel very late. Not to mention the fact that LS have a very short shelf-life because muskets are so soon after Steel. So you'd have to take a detour to steel and then not get the musket research in order to effectively use Samurai.

 

[ggmoyang]

When did it get changed to 70%? As of G&K, it was 10% reduction for every 20 hit points lost, down to 1 HP. This meant that at 1 HP, you would be fighting very slightly above 50%. Where was this capped?

The samurai is great and should be spammed during the age it comes in. Just because the unit it replaces is bad, does not make the samurai bad for being a replacement.

Nope, it was 50% in Vanilla and in GnK it's 67%. (It's in globaldefines.xml)
And I can't agree with with Samurai. Melee units are generally bad in GnK and Samurai is not an exception.

The bonuses of a Samurai are fine. But it's placement in Steel is what kills it. The best(read: strategist players/min-maxers/etc...) strategies involve beelining to Education->Scientific Theory->Plastics while using archers/artillery to take cities. Longswords and Swordsmen have long been discussed in other threads because they require iron and they're outside of the optimal tech path. Since you don't need to research steel until you go for Plastics, you end up researching Steel very late. Not to mention the fact that LS have a very short shelf-life because muskets are so soon after Steel. So you'd have to take a detour to steel and then not get the musket research in order to effectively use Samurai.

Good point. But IIRC, you can train Samurai even after researching Gunpowder, it obsoletes at Metallurgy or something.

 

[Hans Castorp]

When did it get changed to 70%? As of G&K, it was 10% reduction for every 20 hit points lost, down to 1 HP. This meant that at 1 HP, you would be fighting very slightly above 50%. Where was this capped?

The samurai is great and should be spammed during the age it comes in. Just because the unit it replaces is bad, does not make the samurai bad for being a replacement.

The zero is useless I will agree, however so are a variety of other civs UUs. Japan can't be the worst because of that alone.

Not sure about this 70% cap business myself. I would need to check the game again. It would make sense of the sense I've had playing against Japan that they just are not as fierce as they used to be. I put it down to the 100 hit points. Going back and playing the Vanilla scenarios recently, I had forgotten how quickly units died on the 10 HP system. Except the Japanese, whose UA made them capable of taking a lot of punishment. Since G&K, all units can take enough punishment that they can withdraw and regroup fairly easily, which leaves the Japanese looking less deadly. If the cap on damage when wounded has been changed too, that would explain why, when once I worried about facing Japanese invasions, nowadays I shrug and get on with it...

Edit: So there we go, the cap has changed. That does explain a lot.

 

[Matsume]

Im also think Japan is forgotten and bad designed.

1 - Bushido is an OK UA at its best (early game), for me is one of the weakest UA out there

2 - Samurai ??? What? That same str only 1 promotion and great generals LongSwordsman replacer? Please, not only they replace a sub used unit (ranged and cavalry units simple dominate battlefields as off Gods and Kings, almost making melee units useless ) and they even managed to make one the best and most well known fighters of all time into a lame (but stylish) fighter that is almost immediately obsolete (because now Longswords evolve into muskets) at their very moment of creation (that is if you're lucky enough to have some decent iron supply around by that time).

3- Zero ??? Is that the name of the UU or the actual usefulness score of the unit ???
The unit comes way too late in the game, have a bonus against a unit the computer rarely builds (if build one at all) and simple sucks overall, such a waste of a UU.

Please give japan some love, they need it badly.

Now for suggestions:

Bushido- Keep old bonus + Give them something to generate culture and or Science (like receiving culture/science if wins a battle against a civ that is ahead of Japan in Techs)

Samurai - Keep great generals II (bring me Takeda Shingen, Date Masamune, Hideyoshi, ... ) buff their str to something like 25ish or give them a nice BANZAI! like promotion that gives them a nice bonus when attacking that is kept as the unit is upgraded.

Zero - Take that ***** of the game and give them a nice Dojo(Barracks replacemente that gives +2 culture) or something like a Zen garden (that gives faith and/or culture) and replaces garden and dont require fresh water.

What you guys think of the suggestions???

 

[Yzman]

Nope, it was 50% in Vanilla and in GnK it's 67%. (It's in globaldefines.xml)
And I can't agree with with Samurai. Melee units are generally bad in GnK and Samurai is not an exception.

Hmm, I never heard that it was changed. The strategy articles on here are very misleading then. So I will agree that Bushido is a bit weak now.

I don't agree about samurai though. The abilities of the samurai are fine, people's complaints are with melee units, longswords especially. This is not unique to Japan and should not be held against them.

I find it unlikely they will touch anything with Japan, especially units.