Wonder Elimination Thread

[civnoob13]

Okay, but you only reduced brandenburg gate by one, it should be reduced by two to 14. It is a hard choice between Brandenburg and the colossus for the worst wonder. They're both worse than big ben (which I voted down) on second thoughts.

You can later compensate for the missed Stonehenge culture with city states or cultural wonders/buildings (buy Museums with Big Ben to quickly get the Hermitage )
Or you can conquer the city that has Stonehenge .
I sometimes go for Collective Rule if there are some very good spots for expansion though. As I said, it's all about circumstance and terrain.

Yeah, but stonehenge is at its most useful right at the start of the game . I'm usually running at 4 culture at the stage i get stonehenge (palace, SP, and monument), so increasing this by 8 is effectively tripling my SP rate. By the time you could do any of the above, that is greatly diminished.

 

[GoodSarmatian]

Yes, 8 culture early is huge, but I still think it's not worth the opportunity cost. It's still a very good wonder, but I don't think it's top tier like Chitchen Itza or Big Ben. The early engineer points can be very powerful though and all but guarantee an early medieval wonder. If I have marble in my capital and the expansion opportunities are less than stellar I'll try to build it.

About the one-off wonders like Great Library, Oracle, Louvre and such: Keep in mind that building them can be good, but conquering them is almost useless. That's why I prefer Oracle over Stonehenge. A puppet state with Stonehenge is awesome for your policy progression. Doesn't increase your policy cost and gives loads of culture (especially with Democracy). Brandenburg Gate can be good to start a golden age on demand, especially when you have Chitchen Itza (I know I mention Chitchen Itza a lot, it's awesome...).

 

[Save_Ferris]

Angkor Wat 20
Big Ben 19
Brandenburg Gate 14
Chichen Itza 21
Cristo Redentor 18
Eiffel Tower 20
Himeji Castle 21
Machu Picchu 20
Notre Dame 20
Pentagon 21
Sistine Chapel 20
Statue of Liberty 20
Stonehenge 23
Sydney Opera House 18
Taj Mahal 20
Colossus 14
Forbidden Palace 20
Great Library 20
Great Lighthouse 20
Great Wall 20
Hagia Sophia 20
Hanging Gardens 16
Kremlin 18
Louvre 20
Oracle 20
Porcelain Tower 18
Pyramids 24

Fixed.

 

[renetika]

Angkor Wat 20
Big Ben 19
Brandenburg Gate 12
Chichen Itza 21
Cristo Redentor 18
Eiffel Tower 20
Himeji Castle 21
Machu Picchu 20
Notre Dame 20
Pentagon 21
Sistine Chapel 20
Statue of Liberty 20
Stonehenge 23
Sydney Opera House 18
Taj Mahal 20
Colossus 14
Forbidden Palace 20
Great Library 20
Great Lighthouse 20
Great Wall 20
Hagia Sophia 20
Hanging Gardens 16
Kremlin 18
Louvre 20
Oracle 21
Porcelain Tower 18
Pyramids 24


One free social policy so early in the game is always nice... Objectively Oracle is probably not the best wonder out there, but I've always had a soft spot for it .

 

[I_qua_I]

Angkor Wat 20
Big Ben 19
Brandenburg Gate 12
Chichen Itza 21
Cristo Redentor 18
Eiffel Tower 20
Himeji Castle 21
Machu Picchu 20
Notre Dame 20
Pentagon 21
Sistine Chapel 20
Statue of Liberty 20
Stonehenge 24
Sydney Opera House 18
Taj Mahal 20
Colossus 12
Forbidden Palace 20
Great Library 20
Great Lighthouse 20
Great Wall 20
Hagia Sophia 20
Hanging Gardens 16
Kremlin 18
Louvre 20
Oracle 21
Porcelain Tower 18
Pyramids 24

 

[civnoob13]

Angkor Wat 20
Big Ben 19
Brandenburg Gate 12
Chichen Itza 21
Cristo Redentor 18
Eiffel Tower 20
Himeji Castle 21
Machu Picchu 20
Notre Dame 20
Pentagon 21
Sistine Chapel 20
Statue of Liberty 20
Stonehenge 25
Sydney Opera House 18
Taj Mahal 20
Colossus 10
Forbidden Palace 20
Great Library 20
Great Lighthouse 20
Great Wall 20
Hagia Sophia 20
Hanging Gardens 16
Kremlin 18
Louvre 20
Oracle 21
Porcelain Tower 18
Pyramids 24

I am still adamant that stonehenge is the best. It allows you to nab the first few SPs far earlier, which is fantastic for your empire in itself. Also, it effectively reduces the cost of your SPs because by the time you get them you'll have less cities. Yes, you do have to sacrifice an early settler, but this doesn't matter because the amount of extra SPs you get is easily enough to get the SP for a free settler and far more. Meanwhile, I have never felt the need for colossus. If you ever do have enough sea tiles to make it worthwhile, chances are you won't have the production anyway. A few banks around your cities are cheaper and usually more effective whilst in the best of situations the colossus is only okay.

 

[ColinTH]

Angkor Wat 20
Big Ben 19
Brandenburg Gate 12
Chichen Itza 21
Cristo Redentor 18
Eiffel Tower 20
Himeji Castle 21
Machu Picchu 20
Notre Dame 20
Pentagon 21
Sistine Chapel 20
Statue of Liberty 20
Stonehenge 25
Sydney Opera House 18
Taj Mahal 18
Colossus 10
Forbidden Palace 20
Great Library 20
Great Lighthouse 20
Great Wall 20
Hagia Sophia 21
Hanging Gardens 16
Kremlin 18
Louvre 20
Oracle 21
Porcelain Tower 18
Pyramids 24

the hagia sofia is great for great people production, I rarely have golden periods so Taj Mahal is not for me.

 

[sylvanllewelyn]

Angkor Wat 20
Big Ben 19
Brandenburg Gate 12
Chichen Itza 21
Cristo Redentor 18
Eiffel Tower 20
Himeji Castle 21
Machu Picchu 20
Notre Dame 20
Pentagon 21
Sistine Chapel 20
Statue of Liberty 20
Stonehenge 25
Sydney Opera House 18
Taj Mahal 18
Colossus 8
Forbidden Palace 20
Great Library 20
Great Lighthouse 20
Great Wall 20
Hagia Sophia 21
Hanging Gardens 16
Kremlin 18
Louvre 20
Oracle 21
Porcelain Tower 19
Pyramids 24

Ancient era wonders are powerful but I got dozens of more important things to do.

 

[Moriboe]

Angkor Wat 20
Big Ben 20
Brandenburg Gate 10
Chichen Itza 21
Cristo Redentor 18
Eiffel Tower 20
Himeji Castle 21
Machu Picchu 20
Notre Dame 20
Pentagon 21
Sistine Chapel 20
Statue of Liberty 20
Stonehenge 25
Sydney Opera House 18
Taj Mahal 18
Colossus 8
Forbidden Palace 20
Great Library 20
Great Lighthouse 20
Great Wall 20
Hagia Sophia 21
Hanging Gardens 16
Kremlin 18
Louvre 20
Oracle 21
Porcelain Tower 19
Pyramids 24

 

[elprofesor]

gkor Wat 20
Big Ben 20
Brandenburg Gate 10
Chichen Itza 21
Cristo Redentor 18
Eiffel Tower 20
Himeji Castle 21
Machu Picchu 20
Notre Dame 20
Pentagon 21
Sistine Chapel 20
Statue of Liberty 20
Stonehenge 25
Sydney Opera House 18
Taj Mahal 18
Colossus 8
Forbidden Palace 21
Great Library 20
Great Lighthouse 18
Great Wall 20
Hagia Sophia 21
Hanging Gardens 16
Kremlin 18
Louvre 20
Oracle 21
Porcelain Tower 19
Pyramids 24

Between the Great Lighthouse and the Colossus, it's a tough call... I never build any of them, but for some reason the GL gets built way before the Colossus, so if my capital is a really nice coastal city, I can always build it later, if I have time to spare... While the GL is simply useless in non archipelago maps, because you might as well explore your own continent with scouts, and naval warfare will be almost inexistent.
Forbidden palace on the other hand is a must (with Theocracy) if you are running a large empire. I always beeline banking after my longswordmen/chivalry rush, and it always nets me 20 happiness on spot, and even more later in the game.

 

[Phyrio]

Angkor Wat 20
Big Ben 20
Brandenburg Gate 10
Chichen Itza 21
Cristo Redentor 18
Eiffel Tower 20
Himeji Castle 21
Machu Picchu 20
Notre Dame 20
Pentagon 21
Sistine Chapel 20
Statue of Liberty 21
Stonehenge 25
Sydney Opera House 18
Taj Mahal 18
Colossus 8
Forbidden Palace 21
Great Library 20
Great Lighthouse 18
Great Wall 20
Hagia Sophia 21
Hanging Gardens 14
Kremlin 18
Louvre 20
Oracle 21
Porcelain Tower 19
Pyramids 24



Hanging Gardens goes down because the AI always rushes it and it's +1 pop to 2-4 cities isn't that amazing to begin with.

Statue of Liberty goes up because it's surprising how much production you can get from this. Plus by the time it comes around there aren't many wonders left to build. In most games I have a GE ready to hurry the Statue.

 

[elprofesor]

I'm amazed how much bashing the hanging gardens are getting. Sure, they aren't the best wonder around, and mathematics isn't the most important tech of its era either (since you should be beelining steel for longswordmen).
Then again, one extra pop in all your cities is pretty cool for jump-starting your economy (1-2 pop cities are pretty much useless because they lack production, and can't feed themselves properly yet), and I think you are even from 3 extra pop onwards; it is slightly better in marathon games, where you may have 1-2 extra cities when the wonder is finished (if rexing), compared to standard speed.
But most people forget the part where it grants 3 extra happiness! Think of the HG as a slightly less powerful Notre Dame, that comes a lot earlier and boosts your economy, and maybe you will think differently about it.

HG suffer especially from the fact that ancient/classical era wonders mean sacrificing early expansion, and don't give back nearly as much as a NC start does, unless you are going for a cultural victory, in which case Stonehenge (for example) is a way better wonder (both for culture and GE points).

 

[jdog5000]

Angkor Wat 20
Big Ben 20
Brandenburg Gate 10
Chichen Itza 21
Cristo Redentor 18
Eiffel Tower 20
Himeji Castle 21
Machu Picchu 20
Notre Dame 20
Pentagon 21
Sistine Chapel 20
Statue of Liberty 22
Stonehenge 25
Sydney Opera House 18
Taj Mahal 18
Colossus 6
Forbidden Palace 21
Great Library 20
Great Lighthouse 18
Great Wall 20
Hagia Sophia 21
Hanging Gardens 14
Kremlin 18
Louvre 20
Oracle 21
Porcelain Tower 19
Pyramids 24

Brandenburg gate can at least be used for a golden age ... the Colossus is a giant waste of time except in very specific circumstances where it is then only okay. Both suck.

 

[Randall Turner]

Between the Great Lighthouse and the Colossus, it's a tough call... I never build any of them, but for some reason the GL gets built way before the Colossus, so if my capital is a really nice coastal city, I can always build it later, if I have time to spare... While the GL is simply useless in non archipelago maps, because you might as well explore your own continent with scouts, and naval warfare will be almost inexistent.
Forbidden palace on the other hand is a must (with Theocracy) if you are running a large empire. I always beeline banking after my longswordmen/chivalry rush, and it always nets me 20 happiness on spot, and even more later in the game.

Whoa!

Early "elimination" thread posts are usually pretty dull, there's always two or three weak links.

The Great Lighthouse is unexpected. ie, I'm surprised anyone would pick that as a weak sister before any other wonders are eliminated. Any wonder I specifically go out and "look for" isn't one I'd expect to pop up this early. (And I do, I figure out who's built that thing and whether I can cherry-pick it off them early.) I'd hands-down rate it above the Forbidden Palace.

Must be play style.

 

[Tabarnak]

Angkor Wat 20
Big Ben 20
Brandenburg Gate 10
Chichen Itza 21
Cristo Redentor 18
Eiffel Tower 20
Himeji Castle 21
Machu Picchu 20
Notre Dame 20
Pentagon 21
Sistine Chapel 20
Statue of Liberty 22
Stonehenge 25
Sydney Opera House 18
Taj Mahal 18
Colossus 4
Forbidden Palace 21
Great Library 20
Great Lighthouse 18
Great Wall 20
Hagia Sophia 21
Hanging Gardens 14
Kremlin 18
Louvre 20
Oracle 21
Porcelain Tower 20
Pyramids 24

 

[The A.K.T]

Angkor Wat 20
Big Ben 20
Brandenburg Gate 10
Chichen Itza 21
Cristo Redentor 18
Eiffel Tower 20
Himeji Castle 21
Machu Picchu 20
Notre Dame 20
Pentagon 21
Sistine Chapel 20
Statue of Liberty 22
Stonehenge 26(+1)
Sydney Opera House 18
Taj Mahal 18
Colossus 2(-2)
Forbidden Palace 21
Great Library 20
Great Lighthouse 18
Great Wall 20
Hagia Sophia 21
Hanging Gardens 14
Kremlin 18
Louvre 20
Oracle 21
Porcelain Tower 20
Pyramids 24

 

[elprofesor]

Whoa!

Early "elimination" thread posts are usually pretty dull, there's always two or three weak links.

The Great Lighthouse is unexpected. ie, I'm surprised anyone would pick that as a weak sister before any other wonders are eliminated. Any wonder I specifically go out and "look for" isn't one I'd expect to pop up this early. (And I do, I figure out who's built that thing and whether I can cherry-pick it off them early.) I'd hands-down rate it above the Forbidden Palace.

Must be play style.

Well, unless playing archipelago or similar, I simply don't feel the need to explore with more than one or two caravels. Maybe I'm doing something wrong, but I *never* build a trirreme (unless special circumstances arise, such as playing with the Ottomans or the English, or a navy of barbarian galleys assault me); they are simply too weak.
And once we get to the modern era, sure, my navy is going nowhere, but neither are the AIs, so... Obviously, it wouldn't be the case if playing a small continents map in MP, but I don't play MP.
On the other hand, with FP, Theocracy, and a couple more of proportional happiness SP (the ones in Libery and Order, specifically), I can expand like crazy and still be in the +50s happiness, if careful. Since FP is the only one that the AIs can deny to me, that's why I rank it as the best/most important.

Out of curiosity, what are your experiences with the GL? Why would you rank it above the FP?

 

[Randall Turner]

Out of curiosity, what are your experiences with the GL? Why would you rank it above the FP?

I play a lot of late game, and I always play a strong Culture game, so I've always got the Order "Planned Economy" policy. That does the same thing the Forbidden Palace does. In my current game, I'd only get about 5-6 happiness from it. (I've got 20-25 cities, play semi-wide, semi-tall, ie, medium.) Even Monarchy (later Tradition policy) gives me a much bigger happiness boost. Edit: my capital is currently at 24 population, so Monarchy will give me a +12 happiness boost along with some money. (Actually more like +9 net happiness gain due to specialists.)

Likewise, late-game, I have to deal with Aircraft Carriers and Submarines (nuclear and normal) which are slow to stage from one theater to another. I've also bumped up Battleship speed, but not so much that I don't appreciate the extra movement for them, too.

I also have the AI at a "better-than-Deity" growth rate, so late-game I've got a lot of AI controlled ships to deal with.

Many of my DD's aren't derived from Caravels. (Caravel-derived DD's have both the +2 Caravel sight range and the +3 DD sight range.) The "normal" DD's benefit from the +1 Great Lighthouse sight quite a bit, as do any SS's I've got operating independently.

But mostly, it's the global movement bonus for my slower advanced ship types.

Edit: and my vote for today, let's kill off the bogus Colossus, whose main problem is that it improves hexes I'm not going to work anyway. I'll bump the Christo Redentor, which is key for culture, don't know why it got dropped so early...

Angkor Wat 20
Big Ben 20
Brandenburg Gate 10
Chichen Itza 21
Cristo Redentor 19
Eiffel Tower 20
Himeji Castle 21
Machu Picchu 20
Notre Dame 20
Pentagon 21
Sistine Chapel 20
Statue of Liberty 22
Stonehenge 26
Sydney Opera House 18
Taj Mahal 18
Colossus 0
Forbidden Palace 21
Great Library 20
Great Lighthouse 18
Great Wall 20
Hagia Sophia 21
Hanging Gardens 14
Kremlin 18
Louvre 20
Oracle 21
Porcelain Tower 20
Pyramids 24

 

[swmaniac]

Angkor Wat 20
Big Ben 20
Brandenburg Gate 10
Chichen Itza 21
Cristo Redentor 18
Eiffel Tower 20
Himeji Castle 21
Machu Picchu 20
Notre Dame 20
Pentagon 21
Sistine Chapel 20
Statue of Liberty 22
Stonehenge 26
Sydney Opera House 18
Taj Mahal 18
Colossus 0
Forbidden Palace 21
Great Library 20
Great Lighthouse 18
Great Wall 20
Hagia Sophia 21
Hanging Gardens 14
Kremlin 18
Louvre 20
Oracle 21
Porcelain Tower 21
Pyramids 24

Colossus is down!

 

[civnoob13]

Colossus is already down, please vote down another one. Thanks!