Workers Terraforming.

[Nevyn]

What I find so confining in CiV with the map you have been given is that it is so static. Tundra will be tundra and desert will be desert. You always get 1 food, 1 hammer, 1 gold on floodplains

But what if workers could slowly change that?

What if the tech tree together with workers allowed for changes to the base terrain? But that it would cost you many turns to do so?
- Grow Forrest. Let's say +50 turns.
- Irrigate from river (with some tech?) +30 turns
- Turn tundra into plains. +75 turns.
- Turn desert into plains. +20 turns
- Turn plains into grassland. +75 turns

And to that; maybe let a worker copy a food resource? Should take many turns, but if you have 3 cows, why not let a worker do a new cow that could travel like a unit and be placed in your empire? Spread bananas? Spread even Horses?

And to that; not just let any worker do that. But give promotions that allows for it. And maybe hurries it? A promo could be 25% Forresting? Or 25% copy Granarystuff?

Let them discover strategic resources? - Prospect at a tile and it may show up? With a % bonus of finding something the next time?

That would also let us treat our workers as something more you can sell for 17 gold and later in the game build in 1 turn. Having a promoted worker stolen from you might even be worth catching? Capturing someone else working might be worth keeping.

What do you think?

 

[FeiLing]

Worker experience! Interesting idea(s). I especially like the "Geologist" promotion (I'd name it like this^^) you mentioned, where a worker could detect a strategic resource (or maybe other random resources that are not even in the game yet (berries, rice, potatoes, whatever) before a tech reveals them globally. The terraforming stuff probably wouldn't need to take half of a game (lol 75 turns?), instead it's just a very late promotion coupled with a tech or era requirement. Worker promos of course would allow to specialize workers (for e.g. farmerI = -20% on building farms; farmer II = -40% on farms (total) while another worker might be specializied in buildings roads etc instead. This idea has great potential imho.

 

[CYZ]

I like the idea of terraforming but not sure if this is the right way to implement it. Then you can turn entire deserts into grasslands with an army of workers. I feel it goes against the principle of civ.

Still, it'd be fun if it were possible some wat though I don't know how (global warming/cooling?)

 

[MARDUK80]

What if the tech tree together with workers allowed for changes to the base terrain? But that it would cost you many turns to do so?
- Grow Forrest. Let's say +50 turns.
- Irrigate from river (with some tech?) +30 turns
- Turn tundra into plains. +75 turns.
- Turn desert into plains. +20 turns
- Turn plains into grassland. +75 turns

What do you think?

Why not of raising hills and lowering them as well? I really enjoyed Terraforming game mechanic from Alpha Centauri (a long time ago), so I have warm feelings / fond memories of it. Most of fun was to lower land so much it would turn to water tile (terraformer unit turns automatically to sea former) and create really long Canals.

Not sure if it would work in CiV though. As the map engine is quite different from ACs. Perhaps in some heavily limited way it could be implemented to the game, like ability to create canals in coastal tiles only or chance to lower hill to grassland/raise flat land. I think I am against of turning tundra to plain tiles and such, since it hardly happens in reality. But if Random Events are ever added to CiV there could be "soil erosion" type event, which would turn land to desert (because you have chopped forest/jungle too much).

 

[S.K. Ren]

What if we sort the terrain into what each type can be turned ito and then place the following rule on terraforming: You can only terraform a tile into the same type as an adjacent tile.

This way if you're stuck in a huge plains you can't just start putting Grasslands next to your city, you have to bring it in slowly from the nearest Grasslands tile. Even more so for deserts, you would have to convert a tile to plains or flood plains before going to grasslands.

As for sorting I would recommend the following:

Desert---------------+>Flood Plains(w/River only)+
		     |		 	    	 |
		     |				 |
		     v		    		 v
Snow--->Tundra---->Plains<------------------>Grasslands(If from Floodplains, add a Marsh)

 

[ShadowWarrior]

Nevyn: That's a cool idea you have. Especially the worker experience ideas!

Let me build on your ideas. How about experience points for workers that can build land tile improvements that give extra production boosts. For example, for each irrigation that a worker builds will, that worker will gain irrigation experience points. When enough experience has been accumulated, this worker is now able to enter an irrigated land tile, and transform itself into a "village" or whatever you want it to be. This village will give that irrigated land tile an extra food production boost for as long as the village is there. Similar things can be done with mines.

We can go further. We have the option of transforming this village back into a worker, and the worker can go somewhere else to become a village or simply continue to do land improvements.

 

[Gucumatz]

Very cool idea; would this be possible to mod with the DLL eventually (am not a modder so have no idea). Worker experience gained over time I assume rather than being able to be gotten from a city right?

 

[Kurtbob]

And to that; maybe let a worker copy a food resource? Should take many turns, but if you have 3 cows, why not let a worker do a new cow that could travel like a unit and be placed in your empire? Spread bananas? Spread even Horses?

Let them discover strategic resources? - Prospect at a tile and it may show up? With a % bonus of finding something the next time?

Throughout history, humans have cultivated plants and raised animals and brought them along with them wherever they settled. For example: Coffee first grew in Ethiopia, spread to Turkey and the Middle East, and now can be found around the world. When I eat Kimchi and other delicious Korean foods, I thank the Portuguese for introducing chili peppers to the area hundreds of years ago.

I think workers changing tiles and spreading resources would require a lot of balancing. How about a modern worker unit that is 'used' much like a fishing boat? They have the same functions as a normal worker (older workers can be upgraded to modern workers) and have the ability to terraform/ spread resources which then uses the unit. Terraforming and spreading resources could also cost a bit of gold and the worker may require strategic resources to build.

I think moving / copying bonus resources would give work to workers, but I still like the random appearances of resources in Civ 4.

Perhaps:
-workers can investigate / cultivate / prospect / whatever a tile to increase the odds of a random resource appearing
-the number of workers in your empire increases the odds of a random resource appearing.
-open borders increases the odds of the appearance of resources found in other empires.

 

[MARDUK80]

Perhaps:

-workers can investigate / cultivate / prospect / whatever a tile to increase the odds of a random resource appearing

-the number of workers in your empire increases the odds of a random resource appearing.

-open borders increases the odds of the appearance of resources found in other empires.

Excellent ideas. Like 'em

Reminds me a bit about the Settlers II (game) style, where you could send Geologist and such to search for source of Fresh Water and Minerals. I liked it a lot. Actually I only ever played Settlers by myself (no enemies) just building my Empire

There should be a random resource appearing in CiV and like in other thread suggested, there could be promotions for workers. So I might promote one of my Worker units to search new resources.

Fresh Water* / Well improvement could be a new bonus resource, affecting Food/Growth/City Health. *Which you could find with a promoted worker.

Would be fun, if balanced properly. Like in previous Civ games the random resource appearing should be quite rare. I also think strategic resources should deplete sometimes (rare occurrence) like Iron 6 dropping to 5. Just when you had secured that one source you would have to start looking for new deposit On the other hand Horses (SR) should get depleted very rarely, more like they would increase over time (source of 2 turns to 4 etc.*) *(Perhaps depend on how many Stables are in nearby cities and how much you have used the resource - "Horse Breeding" skills).

 

[Kurtbob]

Excellent ideas. Like 'em

Would be fun, if balanced properly. Like in previous Civ games the random resource appearing should be quite rare. I also think strategic resources should deplete sometimes (rare occurrence) like Iron 6 dropping to 5. Just when you had secured that one source you would have to start looking for new deposit On the other hand Horses (SR) should get depleted very rarely, more like they would increase over time (source of 2 turns to 4 etc.*) *(Perhaps depend on how many Stables are in nearby cities and how much you have used the resource - "Horse Breeding" skills).

I agree. It should be rare for new resources to appear. However, with the right number of workers, open borders, improvements, and infrastructure they can become far less rare and the appearance of said resources could be somewhat controlled by the player.

Resources should deplete if new resources can be found. Workers would be quite busy if they had to dismantle improvements and create new ones all the time (though I am not positive this will be fun for the player)

One of the things that bugs me about Civ is the magical appearance of resources upon discovering specific research. Why not have resources appear randomly, no matter what resource, at any time. This is an extension to my previous post.

The criteria:

1. Only a small percentage of resources are initially placed on the map at the start of the game (think sparse map). Each civ should still have a luxury resource nearby or the game wouldn't go anywhere.

2. Any resource may be discovered by a civ at anytime. However, certain odds are associated with each resource's discovery.

-Each resource has a set percentage chance of being discovered.
From highest to lowest: Resources that cant be improved/Farm Resources -> Pasture Resources/Fishing Boat Resources/Quarry Resources -> Plantation Resources /Mine Resources - > Well Resources. Resources important to particular eras have their odds of appearing increased when a player is in that era.

-Technology: Certain techs can increase the odds of discovering specific resources. Example: Mining, Steam Engine, Dynamite increase the odds of discovering mine improved resources. Animal Husbandry, Trapping increase the odds of discovering pasture improved resources. etc

-Both workers and improvements increase the odds of a resource appearing. The number of workers in your borders and where your workers are located increases the odds of discovering a resource. Workers will be given a new command that allows them to increase the odds of a resource appearing in the hex they occupy. Improvements also increase the odds that the tile in which they are built upon will have a resource appear.

-Open borders increases the chance of discovering resources found in the other civ.

 

[Nevyn]

Just read the thread so far. So many good ideas I don't know where to begin.

I start with what FeiLing and CYZ wrote. FeiLing thought 75 turns was a very long time. But maybe it could start in ancient era as being so darn expensive in time that you prolly won't start terrforming until much later in the game. Terraforming takes less time in later eras and in modern time it takes no less than building an improvement.

CYZ was concerned about building an army of workers that just terreformed your land into perfection. Maybe this would be a fun way to play it on Settler level, but hardly a strategy for prince up to deity. You can't really afford having 20 workers terraforming for 20-75 turns on King level early in the game. You would have to make choices.

S.K Ren suggested something I was thinking all along but didn't type. That you could just not start in the middle of tundra and create grassland. And for deserts, an oasis would be very valuable as it could serve to slowly grow a desert city into farmland. But it should take time.

And I also like the idea of resources coming more randomly. In many rant threads a key complaint is that the game is funny in the beginning and near the end, but there are eras when you know exactly what you have and what you are going to do.

What about an algorithm that took your empires resources and found some average and then looked at cities that are way below that average and start giving them new resources. If your your puppets have trading posts, your average on food would be low and so no new food tiles for weak cities. And why not deserts growing if you don't improve on it? Grassland turning into plains if not farmed?

 

[CYZ]

what I'd like to see is taking the control of terraforming away from the player through climate change.

Then the desert->plains->grass->tundra->snow mechanic could come into play.

The climate could warm up through deforestation and pollution (based on amount of total world population, multiplied and negated through buildings such as factories or solar plants)

However, it could also cool. Workers can plant forests and there's ways to effect the climate in the modern era.

Then you could use it strategicly, if you're in a tundra era and other civs are near plains, then you will want to heat up the planet. Then you will have grass and they will have desert. A little bit like how Denmark will benefit from the ice on greenland melting (not saying they're trying to make this happen though!!!)