World's Fair, CV, and Great Scientists

roymend

Chieftain
Joined
Aug 15, 2013
Messages
28
Hello everybody. I have been wandering around this forum for about 5-6 months, and finally decided to create an account. Yes, I know this is a common case.

First, please forgive me for my terrible english.

I saw some people here saying that International Games and World's Fair are very important for CV. I understand why IG is important, but why is WF important? It gives some nice culture buffs and all, but tourism is what really matters...

Another thing I don't understand: Why people say it is better to bulb Great Scientists in the very late game, instead of using it right away. It will give you more beakers later, that's true, but it won't give you more technologies later, because later techs require more beakers...
 
Not sure why people suggest that. I like to use Great Scientists quickly. Never know when you might be attacked and having a tech like Chivalry sooner can turn the tide of war. Your surprised, small army of knights is better off then your surprised, small army of horsemen.
 
If you don't win the world's fair, someone else will.

And they will get double :c5culture: for 20 turns, and if they are the top culture CIV, then that's ~20 turns longer to get influential.

Scientists give you a number of beakers = to the your last 8 turns from when they were born. At this point, "saving" scientists doesn't work anymore, but you can save your faith buys for when your beaker produce is topped off (usually after plastics).
 
Hello everybody. I have been wandering around this forum for about 5-6 months, and finally decided to create an account. Yes, I know this is a common case.

First, please forgive me for my terrible english.

I saw some people here saying that International Games and World's Fair are very important for CV. I understand why IG is important, but why is WF important? It gives some nice culture buufs and all, but tourism is what really matters...

Another thing I don't understand: Why people say it is better to bulb Great Scientists in the very late game, instead of using it right away. It will give you more beakers later, that's true, but it won't give you more technologies later, because later techs require more beakers...

Here's why you plant scientists early.

Early techs cost a few hundred beakers. Let's say 300, for example.

When you bulb a scientist, you get an amount that is a multiplier on your current tech output, which in the early game, might equate to 20-30 turns of beakers.

When you plant a scientist, you get like 8 beakers/turn until you stop researching techs. Which, unless you're bad-ass at early game wins, is at least 200 turns.

After 100 turns, the planted scientist has generated *far* more beakers than a bulbed scientist.

But that's not all. Any +% to science, like university or observatory, etc., applies to your academy yield. So that bonus ends up being more like 12-16 beakers/turn.

Finally, and this is key, like I said, when you bulb you get a multiplier on your current tech output. When you bulb in the late game, all your academies and science specialists are contributing to that, so you get a much bigger lump sum. And, since the game is going to be over in 50-100 turns, the value of placing them is far less. When your total tech output is 800, what is 8 more?

But, context matters!! If you are one turn away from completing Oxford University, bulbing might get you a tech so that you can slingshot into the next era, or get Artillery 25 turns earlier than your neighbor.

Timing is everything. I try to time all my universities to complete at once, or I buy the ones that would build slowly. For example, with Portugal last night, I timed my 2 universities, then completed Oxford right when I completed a tech, so I got Navigation for free, upgraded all my triremes to Nau, started planting Faetorias AND upgraded my Galleas to Frigates all at once. I then proceeded to explore the world, found the World Congress, and capture two capitals while other people were still using triremes. Game was in the bag by 560 AD. Now I just need to finish teching Battleships and take out England. Damn Elizabeth and her pesky navy!

Point is, I got there by planting my scientists and focusing on early growth. It's not the only way, but it's a damn good way. ;-)
 
Here's why you plant scientists early.

Early techs cost a few hundred beakers. Let's say 300, for example.

When you bulb a scientist, you get an amount that is a multiplier on your current tech output, which in the early game, might equate to 20-30 turns of beakers.

When you plant a scientist, you get like 8 beakers/turn until you stop researching techs. Which, unless you're bad-ass at early game wins, is at least 200 turns.

After 100 turns, the planted scientist has generated *far* more beakers than a bulbed scientist.

But that's not all. Any +% to science, like university or observatory, etc., applies to your academy yield. So that bonus ends up being more like 12-16 beakers/turn.

Finally, and this is key, like I said, when you bulb you get a multiplier on your current tech output. When you bulb in the late game, all your academies and science specialists are contributing to that, so you get a much bigger lump sum. And, since the game is going to be over in 50-100 turns, the value of placing them is far less. When your total tech output is 800, what is 8 more?

But, context matters!! If you are one turn away from completing Oxford University, bulbing might get you a tech so that you can slingshot into the next era, or get Artillery 25 turns earlier than your neighbor.

Timing is everything. I try to time all my universities to complete at once, or I buy the ones that would build slowly. For example, with Portugal last night, I timed my 2 universities, then completed Oxford right when I completed a tech, so I got Navigation for free, upgraded all my triremes to Nau, started planting Faetorias AND upgraded my Galleas to Frigates all at once. I then proceeded to explore the world, found the World Congress, and capture two capitals while other people were still using triremes. Game was in the bag by 560 AD. Now I just need to finish teching Battleships and take out England. Damn Elizabeth and her pesky navy!

Point is, I got there by planting my scientists and focusing on early growth. It's not the only way, but it's a damn good way. ;-)

Hey, I'm not THAT stupid. I got the point of planting VS. bulbing myself. My argument was about early bulbing (in the time when there's no point in planting anymore) VS. late bulbing (to get through the info era quickly). But thanks for the reply anyway.
 
Doh, sorry, misread. Right, it's because you want to rush the spaceship, because presumably *you* triggered the World Leader voting by starting the Space Race. It's to avoid losing a Diplo Victory.

Personally I prefer to just attack whoever might win a Diplo, or eat their best CS. ;-)

These days, Space/Diplo/Cultural victory through conquest seems sadly to be the most effective, because the AI is worst at military strategy. :p
 
There seems to be a bit of a misunderstanding.

Great scientists don't have a strength associated with them like missionaries and great musicians.

The "bulb" mechanic works like this: it takes your last 8 turns of beakers (not 8x your current output) and puts that towards your next tech. The other option is an academy, which will give you 8 beakers per turn (as long as you keep working the tile it's on) and can be boosted by technology (like scientific theory and nuclear fission) as well as korea's UA. Because in the early game 8 beakers per turn is a larger percentage of your total beakers, it is more economical to make academies, as with the academy you'll more than make up for the 8 turns of research in the early game.

Once you hit the industrial era the bonus from academies is a smaller percentage of your total beakers and it is more economical to bulb them to get to important techs, and if you are going for a science victory it is often better to save them until you have research labs for maximum beaker output.
 
looks like most people have jumped on the scientist question so I will try to answer the world fair.

Basically, you're right that culture doesn't DIRECTLY win the game any more. However...culture can definitely lead to increased tourism INDIRECTLY.

Consider, for instance, that researching the Internet as quickly as possible is a key goal for culture victories. So is researching refrigeration for hotels. Well don't you think you'll be able to speed through the tech tree faster if you have rationalism completed? The answer is yes, yes you will.

From my experience, winning the worlds fair is worth AT LEAST 2 WHOLE POLICIES at a MINIMUM if timed correctly. You get one free one, and typically the 20 turn bonus will provide for 1 more than usual. That's on the low end. 3 is more common if you are focused on culture.

Also note, that great writers birthed after the first 8 turns of the world fair, will have HUGE amounts of culture power if you use the insta-burn option. I have gotten enough culture to pick 2 entire policies, from just ONE great writer timed perfectly. That brings the total free policies up to 4-5 overall from world fair if you can just get 1 writer out in that 12 turn time frame.

In addition to rationalism, you also have the ideologies that you're trying to get through as well. For instance, the tier 3 tenet under freedom for +33% culture with radio towers is huge for culture victory.

Basically if you work the world fair correctly, it gives you a huge advantage in completing rationalism AND your ideology at a much faster pace than usual. That's why it's important for culture victories.
 
looks like most people have jumped on the scientist question so I will try to answer the world fair.

Basically, you're right that culture doesn't DIRECTLY win the game any more. However...culture can definitely lead to increased tourism INDIRECTLY.

Consider, for instance, that researching the Internet as quickly as possible is a key goal for culture victories. So is researching refrigeration for hotels. Well don't you think you'll be able to speed through the tech tree faster if you have rationalism completed? The answer is yes, yes you will.

From my experience, winning the worlds fair is worth AT LEAST 2 WHOLE POLICIES at a MINIMUM if timed correctly. You get one free one, and typically the 20 turn bonus will provide for 1 more than usual. That's on the low end. 3 is more common if you are focused on culture.

Also note, that great writers birthed after the first 8 turns of the world fair, will have HUGE amounts of culture power if you use the insta-burn option. I have gotten enough culture to pick 2 entire policies, from just ONE great writer timed perfectly. That brings the total free policies up to 4-5 overall from world fair if you can just get 1 writer out in that 12 turn time frame.

In addition to rationalism, you also have the ideologies that you're trying to get through as well. For instance, the tier 3 tenet under freedom for +33% culture with radio towers is huge for culture victory.

Basically if you work the world fair correctly, it gives you a huge advantage in completing rationalism AND your ideology at a much faster pace than usual. That's why it's important for culture victories.

Agreed, there is great synergy between Cultural and Space Victories right now. In the words of the immortal Isaac Hayes, "Freeeeeeedommmm!" You just have to remember which one you're going for. Resist the urge to build those Culture wonders when you're falling below the average military strength or need public schools! :p
 
There seems to be a bit of a misunderstanding.

Great scientists don't have a strength associated with them like missionaries and great musicians.

The "bulb" mechanic works like this: it takes your last 8 turns of beakers (not 8x your current output) and puts that towards your next tech.

Right. So here's why it's sometimes correct tot wait to bulb a great scientist:

My civ's science output increases as the game goes on. Every time one of my cities gains a population or finishes a science building, or I choose a Rationalism policy, my beakers per turn goes up. Or I get a new trade route, or a new jungle tile.

Let's say I currently make 193 beakers per turn and that number goes up by 2 per turn. (That's a lot, but it makes the math easier so bear with me.)

If I use my GS when my output is 207, I'll get (193+195+...+207) = 200*8 = 1600 beakers.

If I wait 25 turns and use my GS when my output is 257, I'll get 243+245+...+257 = 250*8 = 2000 beakers.

Of course I'll have paid about 2 gold per turn in maintenance for the GS unit. I'm trading gold for science.

In practice, your science production tends to increase in spurts, for example, right after you get Research Labs or your two conquered cities leave rebellion and start producing. Those are the times where you might see a big gain from waiting.

The OP made a logical error in saying, so what if you get more beakers if you wait, the later techs cost more. But those techs were gonna cost the same amount no matter when you bulb the GS. Think of it this way. Maybe your goal is to win by culture so you want The Internet. Let's say The Internet and all its prerequisite techs cost a total of 30,000 beakers. You need to make 30,000 beakers to get there. If you use a GS to get 1600, you're 1600 closer. If you use a GS to get 2000, you're 2000 closer.
 
Right. So here's why it's sometimes correct tot wait to bulb a great scientist:

My civ's science output increases as the game goes on. Every time one of my cities gains a population or finishes a science building, or I choose a Rationalism policy, my beakers per turn goes up. Or I get a new trade route, or a new jungle tile.

Let's say I currently make 193 beakers per turn and that number goes up by 2 per turn. (That's a lot, but it makes the math easier so bear with me.)

If I use my GS when my output is 207, I'll get (193+195+...+207) = 200*8 = 1600 beakers.

If I wait 25 turns and use my GS when my output is 257, I'll get 243+245+...+257 = 250*8 = 2000 beakers.

Of course I'll have paid about 2 gold per turn in maintenance for the GS unit. I'm trading gold for science.

In practice, your science production tends to increase in spurts, for example, right after you get Research Labs or your two conquered cities leave rebellion and start producing. Those are the times where you might see a big gain from waiting.

The OP made a logical error in saying, so what if you get more beakers if you wait, the later techs cost more. But those techs were gonna cost the same amount no matter when you bulb the GS. Think of it this way. Maybe your goal is to win by culture so you want The Internet. Let's say The Internet and all its prerequisite techs cost a total of 30,000 beakers. You need to make 30,000 beakers to get there. If you use a GS to get 1600, you're 1600 closer. If you use a GS to get 2000, you're 2000 closer.

However, The Internet is not the only important tech for CV.

Let's take archaeology for example. Say I'm beelining archaeology (and later in the game I will beeline The Internet), and I just got a GS. I can bulb him now, and get to archaeology faster, or I can keep him, and bulb him later when I will beeline The Internet. Let's say I don't care about the maintenance, does it matter if I bulb him now or latter?

If you don't win the world's fair, someone else will.

And they will get double :c5culture: for 20 turns, and if they are the top culture CIV, then that's ~20 turns longer to get influential.

So do you count The Great Firewall as an important wonder for CV too?
 
looks like most people have jumped on the scientist question so I will try to answer the world fair.

Basically, you're right that culture doesn't DIRECTLY win the game any more. However...culture can definitely lead to increased tourism INDIRECTLY.

Consider, for instance, that researching the Internet as quickly as possible is a key goal for culture victories. So is researching refrigeration for hotels. Well don't you think you'll be able to speed through the tech tree faster if you have rationalism completed? The answer is yes, yes you will.

From my experience, winning the worlds fair is worth AT LEAST 2 WHOLE POLICIES at a MINIMUM if timed correctly. You get one free one, and typically the 20 turn bonus will provide for 1 more than usual. That's on the low end. 3 is more common if you are focused on culture.

Also note, that great writers birthed after the first 8 turns of the world fair, will have HUGE amounts of culture power if you use the insta-burn option. I have gotten enough culture to pick 2 entire policies, from just ONE great writer timed perfectly. That brings the total free policies up to 4-5 overall from world fair if you can just get 1 writer out in that 12 turn time frame.

In addition to rationalism, you also have the ideologies that you're trying to get through as well. For instance, the tier 3 tenet under freedom for +33% culture with radio towers is huge for culture victory.

Basically if you work the world fair correctly, it gives you a huge advantage in completing rationalism AND your ideology at a much faster pace than usual. That's why it's important for culture victories.

That's also why it's important for every VC. Rationalism (and any other policies/ideologies except Aesthetics) helps in every kind of victory, not just cultural. And that was my point. Does it have any particular advantages for CV? Or is it equally good for every VC?
 
However, The Internet is not the only important tech for CV.

Let's take archaeology for example. Say I'm beelining archaeology (and later in the game I will beeline The Internet), and I just got a GS. I can bulb him now, and get to archaeology faster, or I can keep him, and bulb him later when I will beeline The Internet. Let's say I don't care about the maintenance, does it matter if I bulb him now or latter?

You're right, of course, that you'll get your first tech sooner if you use a GS sooner, but my point is that you'll get your later techs sooner if you use a GS later. That is, if you bulb the GS to finish researching Archeology, you will get Archeology about 8 turns sooner than you would without the GS. However you will only get The Internet maybe 4 turns sooner than you would without the GS. If instead you held the GS for another two eras, by which point your science production may be double what it was when you were researching Archeology, you will get The Internet 8 turns sooner than if you hadn't had the GS at all, which is 4 turns sooner than if you used the GS back when you were researching Archeology.

That's why it's a tradeoff an an interesting game decision.

To try to make it crystal clear, I'll make up a simplified example.

From turn 192 to turn 300, you produce 100:c5science: science per turn. From turn 300 onward, you produce 300:c5science: science per turn.

It's turn 200. You've researched every tech in the Renaissance Era and none in the Industrial Era.

The two techs we care about are Archeology and The Internet.

Archeology costs 1300:c5science:.

The Internet costs 8800:c5science:. Starting from the Industrial Era, The Internet has 16 prerequisite techs. I'm not going to add up all the costs of the 17 techs, but let's estimate that it's a total of 91,000:c5science:.

Without any great scientists, it will take 13 turns to produce 1300:c5science:, so you'll get Archeology on turn 213. You'll produce 100*100:c5science: = 10,000:c5science: beakers on the 100 turns between turn 200 and 300, then you'll start producing 100:c5science: per turn after turn 300, so you'll get the Internet on turn 570:
100:c5science: * (300 - 200) + 300:c5science: * (x - 300) = 91,000:c5science:
x = 570

If you bulb a great scientist on turn 200, it will produce 800:c5science:. That's 8 turns of science production in turn 200 terms, but only 2.667 turns of science production in turn 500 terms. So now you'll get Archeology on turn 205 and The Internet on turn 568.

If you bulb a great scientist on turn 562, it will produce 2400:c5science:. That's 24 turns of science production in turn 200 terms, and 8 turns of science production in turn 500 terms. You'll still get Archeology on turn 213, but now you'll get The Internet on turn 562.

So in this (contrived) example, the decision of when to bulb the GS has been reduced to two alternatives:
Use it now = getting Archeology 8 turns earlier.
Use it at the end of the game = getting the The Internet 6 turns earlier.

The correct time to use the GS will depend on game circumstances. You'll definitely want to use a GS as soon as the tech it would give you would pay serious dividends. But if the current techs you're researching don't really matter, then it will benefit you to hold it a few turns, if your science production is increasing.
 
However, The Internet is not the only important tech for CV.

Let's take archaeology for example. Say I'm beelining archaeology (and later in the game I will beeline The Internet), and I just got a GS. I can bulb him now, and get to archaeology faster, or I can keep him, and bulb him later when I will beeline The Internet. Let's say I don't care about the maintenance, does it matter if I bulb him now or latter?



So do you count The Great Firewall as an important wonder for CV too?

I count winning the game before anyone builds the great firewall as important for CV.
 
Warning: If you play at non-standard game speed, understand that the GS bulbing value does NOT scale with it. It's just 8 turn's value.

So, if I'm playing at marathon speed, I may use ALL my GS for academies. :eek:
 
But on Marathon, the same principle applies as it does in standard. Game speed, as for as I know has no effect on the greater value bulbing them when your science per turn for your current last 8 turns is larger. The main difference is the maintenance cost while holding them.

The later techs require such an increased science cost that it will make the most difference at that time. Of course, if you need to get an earlier tech faster, it might justify bulbing them to reach that objective.
 
That's also why it's important for every VC. Rationalism (and any other policies/ideologies except Aesthetics) helps in every kind of victory, not just cultural. And that was my point. Does it have any particular advantages for CV? Or is it equally good for every VC?

That's true to some extent...culture is generally helpful for all VCs. But it has more impact on a CV due to the fact that you'll have more culture per turn to get multiplied (ie after completing aesthetics).
 
That's true to some extent...culture is generally helpful for all VCs. But it has more impact on a CV due to the fact that you'll have more culture per turn to get multiplied (ie after completing aesthetics).
Not only that, but CV is a very sopol-hungry path to take. The other victories can try to jump directly to Rationalism after finishing their opening tree (perhaps with a short detour to Consulates) without missing much of anything. Whereas with a CV you have the entire Aesthetics tree sitting right in the middle. Around the time the World's Fair becomes available then, you're probably still trying to grab the last few policies in Aesthetics, or else you haven't quite grabbed Free Thought/Secularism, or you've completely neglected your ideological tenets, or a combination of the three. Winning the World's Fair helps you get all of those ducks in a row quickly.
 
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