WW2-Global

Part IV units

Artillery:
I think the units given out at the start of the war should be devided into modern artillery and artillery. Germany should get modern ones exclusively since they just recently begun producing them. On the other hand France relied on the same guns they used in WW2. other nations like the Soviets should get a mix. The British forces in Hong Kong should get modern artillery or even heavy artillery, too.

Upgrades:

The following units should get more upgrade options

ME109 should get an upgrade to a later version with Air 1940 or 1941
FW190 should get two possible upgrade, a mild fighter upgrade and an upgrade to fighter/bomber
ME110 should get a radar upgrade (Nachtjäger). Incrase the operational radius if possible. However the ME110 was as you said a rather weak fighter and the basic version should be downgraded a little especially in regard of air defense missions.

Spitfire can use one or two mild upgrades as it was the fighter used throughout the war.

Unit changes:

SS Panzer 44, should be set to AI offense and defense. Actually the Tiger II were used as mobile fortresses more than as tanks. Also the AI can not use it effectivly as a defense unit without that flag.

S Boot Flotilla: If used in larger stacks to big puch for the buck. Many German ports can produce one per turn. A stack of 20 is produced very quickly and is able to bombard a medium stack of units into the red range. Combined with airforce or anything that can finish units any enemy unit at a coast square can be turned to dust quite quickly.

Mobile rockets/artillery: While I love to use them, they are most likely overpowered and the AI does not use them as it uses artillery only defensively.
In addition before Germany invents the Panther tank, a combination of mobile rockets and panzergrenadiers are often more useful in tank warfare than actual tanks.

Gneisenau II class:
Appears late in the game, the Hindenburg class is more costly but at least to me more cost efficient. In open naval battle a Hindenburg class ship can sink two or three ships that are compareable to the Gneisenau II class.

T 26
This unit is lacking the "wheeled" flag, resulting in the fact it can cross mountain tiles.


Me 262

This planes was used as a tactical bomber as well and with good results (However using the best fighter as a bomber was still a shame). To reflect this, it should be given a bombard value equal to a tactical bomber.
However this plane burned quite a lot of fuel and may the actual operational range is a bit high.

New Units:

Ju 390 Amerikabomber (very long range bomber/recon)

This unit has not seen real action despite first test flights were successfull. However the idea to bombard America was fruitless in 1944 and the invasion of France finally buried the idea to have French based bombers operate up to the coastline of the USA. In case of Germany being successful in building the bomb this would have been the bomber for it. There was a parallel development by Messerschmitt, which had 4 motors, while the JU featured six of them. Having a master degree at aircraft engineering I would say that from a first glance the Juncker design looks to be more robust, keeping in mind that it was very likely for one engine to fail, with the chance of multiple negine failure during this time. However some of the decision regarding the Luftwaffe were rather odd. I even happened to have enjoyed a lecture by one of Messerschmidts assistant designers on aircraft design (he is a professor emeritus at the Technical University of Munich).
If Germany had the resources and would have been in a better position in 1944 it would have probably build that plane in mass production to prepare an invasion of the United States.
In order to reflect the enormous size (75 tons take off weight with over 50m wingspan) of that aircraft the shield cost should be at least twice of any other bomber. However the range should be transatlantic, too.
 
Rocoteh I fully agree with you on realism that´s why naval mines and other unrealistic elements are needed.

However I think some things could possibly be handled different:

On Denmark: I see your point and of course you are the man to decide.

On Turkey: I have a different approach that I will explain in the last part of my summery of commens.

Thanks for all your hard wark again!

PS: South America: I fully agree, I just thought that a few larger nations could defend themselves better and use less processing power.
 
Iarn, the Gneisenau II type was introduced to refit the Scharnhorst class. Indeed The damaged Gneisenau should get the same guns like the Bismarck, so 6 15" guns instead of 9 11". That´s why this class.

Adler
 
Part V Movement

Slowing sea tiles
I think this idea will improve the invasion game much, that was a brilliant idea

New Idea: Special Mountains

The "Turkey problem" as an introduction to the mountain problem

IMHO it would work out best if the mountain area between the Soviets and Turkey would be filled with a single row of special mountains. They are like normal mountains but no roads can be build.
While it would have been possible in theory that an army moved through the Caucasus it would not have been practical and so the special mountain design is even realistic.

With the protection of those special mountains a few infantry in a walled city on a mountain should be enough protection of Turkey. At least I would prefer such a solution

Roads in V2.1:
While I understand the point why there will be no initial railroads in v2.1, this will cause some problems IMHO. With the new system crossing the Himalaya mountains would be as easy as crossing Germany.
To reflect impassable terrain like the Himalaya I would recomment that the special mountain solution here as well. Dehli - Kashgar should be an epic travel not a short trip.
This could solve the problem with tanks in mountains, too. I don t like the fact that if Germany takes India and the Soviets communist China, both parties can have very odd tank battles in the mountains.

The central alps should be roadless to prevent motorized forces from passing them.

The "everything is larger" problem:

With a larger map some things will be different. However a larger map far outshines the drawbacks. Don t get me wrong.

Some concerns.
Even if roads provide a greater movement bonus, in foreign territory the road bonus is negated. As a minor solution the movement rate of fast units could be increased to 3. This would enable the passibility to make heavy tanks slower than fast ones, too. Matildas, as well as Tiger (SS 43 and 44) tanks etc. should have drawbacks.
 
Adler17 said:
Iarn, the Gneisenau II type was introduced to refit the Scharnhorst class. Indeed The damaged Gneisenau should get the same guns like the Bismarck, so 6 15" guns instead of 9 11". That´s why this class.

Adler
Ah thanks for the explanation, I am a total newbe to Naval warfare. I only wondered why someone should build that unit.
 
IarnGreiper said:
Part IV units

Artillery:
I think the units given out at the start of the war should be devided into modern artillery and artillery. Germany should get modern ones exclusively since they just recently begun producing them. On the other hand France relied on the same guns they used in WW2. other nations like the Soviets should get a mix. The British forces in Hong Kong should get modern artillery or even heavy artillery, too.

Upgrades:

The following units should get more upgrade options

ME109 should get an upgrade to a later version with Air 1940 or 1941
FW190 should get two possible upgrade, a mild fighter upgrade and an upgrade to fighter/bomber
ME110 should get a radar upgrade (Nachtjäger). Incrase the operational radius if possible. However the ME110 was as you said a rather weak fighter and the basic version should be downgraded a little especially in regard of air defense missions.

Spitfire can use one or two mild upgrades as it was the fighter used throughout the war.

Unit changes:

SS Panzer 44, should be set to AI offense and defense. Actually the Tiger II were used as mobile fortresses more than as tanks. Also the AI can not use it effectivly as a defense unit without that flag.

S Boot Flotilla: If used in larger stacks to big puch for the buck. Many German ports can produce one per turn. A stack of 20 is produced very quickly and is able to bombard a medium stack of units into the red range. Combined with airforce or anything that can finish units any enemy unit at a coast square can be turned to dust quite quickly.

Mobile rockets/artillery: While I love to use them, they are most likely overpowered and the AI does not use them as it uses artillery only defensively.
In addition before Germany invents the Panther tank, a combination of mobile rockets and panzergrenadiers are often more useful in tank warfare than actual tanks.

Gneisenau II class:
Appears late in the game, the Hindenburg class is more costly but at least to me more cost efficient. In open naval battle a Hindenburg class ship can sink two or three ships that are compareable to the Gneisenau II class.

T 26
This unit is lacking the "wheeled" flag, resulting in the fact it can cross mountain tiles.


Me 262

This planes was used as a tactical bomber as well and with good results (However using the best fighter as a bomber was still a shame). To reflect this, it should be given a bombard value equal to a tactical bomber.
However this plane burned quite a lot of fuel and may the actual operational range is a bit high.

New Units:

Ju 390 Amerikabomber (very long range bomber/recon)

This unit has not seen real action despite first test flights were successfull. However the idea to bombard America was fruitless in 1944 and the invasion of France finally buried the idea to have French based bombers operate up to the coastline of the USA. In case of Germany being successful in building the bomb this would have been the bomber for it. There was a parallel development by Messerschmitt, which had 4 motors, while the JU featured six of them. Having a master degree at aircraft engineering I would say that from a first glance the Juncker design looks to be more robust, keeping in mind that it was very likely for one engine to fail, with the chance of multiple negine failure during this time. However some of the decision regarding the Luftwaffe were rather odd. I even happened to have enjoyed a lecture by one of Messerschmidts assistant designers on aircraft design (he is a professor emeritus at the Technical University of Munich).
If Germany had the resources and would have been in a better position in 1944 it would have probably build that plane in mass production to prepare an invasion of the United States.
In order to reflect the enormous size (75 tons take off weight with over 50m wingspan) of that aircraft the shield cost should be at least twice of any other bomber. However the range should be transatlantic, too.

IarnGreiper,

Thank you for your comments.

Artillery:

Notes have been taken.

Upgrades:

I agree. The units you mention should be splitted and have upgrades.

Unit changes:

SS Panzer 44:

I will consider it. Current move rate have been set with regard
to strategic speed not tactical speed.

S Boot Flotilla:

OK I will look it over.

Mobile rockets/artillery:

Maybe there should be a reduction since AI is unable to use
them for offensives.

Gneisenau II class:

Answer already made by Adler 17 in an earlier post.

T 26

Its a bug that will be corrected in 2.1.

New Units. Ju 390 Amerikabomber.

It sounds like a good idea. Its possible I include it in version 2.1.
Otherwise with the graphic update.

Thank you and welcome back.

Rocoteh
 
IarnGreiper said:
Part V Movement

Slowing sea tiles
I think this idea will improve the invasion game much, that was a brilliant idea

New Idea: Special Mountains

The "Turkey problem" as an introduction to the mountain problem

IMHO it would work out best if the mountain area between the Soviets and Turkey would be filled with a single row of special mountains. They are like normal mountains but no roads can be build.
While it would have been possible in theory that an army moved through the Caucasus it would not have been practical and so the special mountain design is even realistic.

With the protection of those special mountains a few infantry in a walled city on a mountain should be enough protection of Turkey. At least I would prefer such a solution

Roads in V2.1:
While I understand the point why there will be no initial railroads in v2.1, this will cause some problems IMHO. With the new system crossing the Himalaya mountains would be as easy as crossing Germany.
To reflect impassable terrain like the Himalaya I would recomment that the special mountain solution here as well. Dehli - Kashgar should be an epic travel not a short trip.
This could solve the problem with tanks in mountains, too. I don t like the fact that if Germany takes India and the Soviets communist China, both parties can have very odd tank battles in the mountains.

The central alps should be roadless to prevent motorized forces from passing them.

The "everything is larger" problem:

With a larger map some things will be different. However a larger map far outshines the drawbacks. Don t get me wrong.

Some concerns.
Even if roads provide a greater movement bonus, in foreign territory the road bonus is negated. As a minor solution the movement rate of fast units could be increased to 3. This would enable the passibility to make heavy tanks slower than fast ones, too. Matildas, as well as Tiger (SS 43 and 44) tanks etc. should have drawbacks.

IarnGreiper,

Thank you for your comments.

What you say about special mountains is very interesting.
The problem is that the game-engine only allows special tiles
for some types of terrain and mountains is not one of them.

Roads in V2.1:

The same problem here.

The "everything is larger" problem:

I will consider an increase to move rate 3 for some mechanized units.

Thank you and welcome back.

Rocoteh
 
Hello Rocoteh,

would it be possible to use vulcanos as such special terrain and set the eruption chance to zero?

Iarn
 
I read with interest the comments between Rocoteh and Iarn. In general I think the result is good with the following comments -

1. Mobile Rockets/Artillery - This is a definite advantage to human over AI. I view it as the most important unit to get when I play - accordingly it should probably be eliminated or reduced in power.

2. I am going to hold back comments on movement until we see 2.1 and its effects. I expect we will deal with an entire new set of issues.

3. The Turkey situation was worked so many times that I am hesitant to touch it at all.

4. I hope serious consideration is given to elimination of resource requirement for units. This will bring some balance back for Japan and GB.
 
i just downloaded the huge file and put it where it went and saw the editor (by the way it looks great) and then i downloaded the biq file and it say it is a unknown file is that supposed to be there???
 
Tommy1234567890 said:
i just downloaded the huge file and put it where it went and saw the editor (by the i looks great) and then i downloaded the biq file and it say it is a unknown file is that supposed to be there???

Tommy1234567890,

Maybe there can be such a message on some computers.
Anyway there should be no problem to install the file.

Rocoteh
 
IarnGreiper said:
Hello Rocoteh,

would it be possible to use vulcanos as such special terrain and set the eruption chance to zero?

Iarn

"However since I fully agree what you said above I strongly recommend reducing the actual number of tank unit Italy has. In version 2.0 they have 17 tank units altogether." IarnGreiper

On vulcanos:

I wish it was possible, but its not.

On Italy:

Its OOB was adjusted for play-balance.
That will not be the case in version 2.1, where Italy only will
have 3 armoured units.

Rocoteh
 
Bob1475 said:
I read with interest the comments between Rocoteh and Iarn. In general I think the result is good with the following comments -

1. Mobile Rockets/Artillery - This is a definite advantage to human over AI. I view it as the most important unit to get when I play - accordingly it should probably be eliminated or reduced in power.

2. I am going to hold back comments on movement until we see 2.1 and its effects. I expect we will deal with an entire new set of issues.

3. The Turkey situation was worked so many times that I am hesitant to touch it at all.

4. I hope serious consideration is given to elimination of resource requirement for units. This will bring some balance back for Japan and GB.

Bob1475,

1. There will be a change on this.

2. Yes I am sure there will be.

3. I do not plan any changes on Turkey now.

4. I consider that, but I want more feedback on this issue.

Thank you and welcome back.

Rocoteh
 
Even if version 2.1 will use a new map its very important
that you continue to post playtest-reports on 2.0.

These reports are of crucial value with regard to improve the
quality of the scenario.

Rocoteh
 
Hello all,
First a huge thanks to Rocoteh for the outstanding job put in this scenario ! I am enjoying Civ3 as I never did before !

I started a game as German, difficulty god. I like to kinda respect a bit of history so I tried to achieve most of my conquest "historically" at first. Consequently I evidently started to wipe out Poland. I starved Danzig to 1 in pop (made a lot of workers) and boosted Warsaw/Königsberg. Then it was the turn of Amsterdam/Bruxell and France which has been downed thanks to the outstanding Luftwaffe ! Afterthat I seized Copenhagen and Sweden/Norway. I gave Lulëa to Finland as a buffer vs soviet (that might prove to be a failure as SU took Petsamo and I can't travel through Finland without being kicked out back in panzerland =/ I should have kept an access to Laponia.
I quickly Seized Belgrade, I razed Thessaloniki on the process to take Athen and to my total stupor the Italian razed it the turn before I could reach it. The Italian ! Doing something finally, other than blocking my railways ! So I built an engineer thinking I could rebuild the city but I couldn't figure how to build a city (annoying for civilization isn't it ? =)).
Then I performed SeeLöwe, I let Belfast apart (didn't worth the effort) and re embarked my assault force direction USA (Island as a pit stop). I took Halifax, Quebec Montreal and NewYork but I have to make a pause waiting for reinforcement from Europe. The US counterattack has been mid impressive, inefficient (stacks of 5 unit that weren't concentrating fire… Well that's just an AI =/ ) and in fact I am progressing slowly to not spoil the fun of winning to fast…

Same goes for SU. Joseph declared war several time and each time he lost a couple of cities before I stopped my advance. Actually I definitely stopped in Moskva, Leningrad, Kursk, Tula and Sebastobol. I won't go any further before having totally wiped the Brits from India/asia and taken a large steack in Africa. I like to keep SU as my last part of the cake, thus letting them build their force to be ready. Stupidly they keep declaring war vs Japan, therefore receiving a severe beating as they send stacks of T34 vs my wall of panzer/Stukas. Well, AI is dumber than… bah.

All in all I am progressing to quick, I just discovered (reading this topic) that hydro plants and coal plants were not exclusives so I actually pumped my shield production by a freaking marging in my cities… Thus making this game a lot more easier. I shall stop the production in most of my cities and rush more science maybe. I guess I'll stop my US invasion and hold the positions to let the game developp a bit, but the US will erodes his strength harmlessly vs my cities =/ I shallt withdraw but I am reluctant to release ground.

Here comes a bit of disorganized observations I did while playing this enjoyable game. Take those info as they are, just my personnal thought that can be trashed ^^

ME110 : To strong air to air wise, why building ME109 when you can get a semi effective bomber which is really efficient at long range AirtoAir missions.

Gneisenau class ship : Overpowerd, this class of ship had sub par gunnery considering what UK/France/US/Jap was gunning her ships with. I would lower the atk part to 48 instead of 60 and lower the defense as well as its protection was a lot less effective than on a Richelieu/Prince of wales/Arkansas etc…

Same for Bismarck. A lot overpowered offensive wise. He hadn't bigger gun or better optics/calculation mast (the telemeter was actually very oddly placed). His protection wasn't that effective and the few hits he took during the engagement vs Hood made a lot of damage though those hits came from some cruiser 203mm guns and not from the Hood itself.

Mobile Artillery/Rocketry : Totally overpowered. Being able to move 2 hex is ok considering this is some mechanized Artillery but being able to fire 2 time in a turn is what makes it to strong. A Nebehlwerfer or a Stalin organ never were quicker to reload than a gun and shouldn't be able to fire more than some towed artillery.

Those minefileds are a pain in the ass for the Royal Navy. They keep stupidely bombing them with little to ne effect. Of course, aftermath it's easy to sink every piece of RN which stood in front of your minefield. Get rid of those mines. I know no one could step in Baltic sea during the war but it's a lot more realistic to let this happen rather than seeing the RoyalNavy raped for peanuts.

Dewotine 520 : Those planes arrived in operational unit 1940; French lost 50 of those planes for a little over 160 victory won before the Armistice of June 40. This plane was absolutely excellent, more manoeuvrable than a ME109, he was flying as fast but climbed a little slower. His weaponry was excellent (a lot more than on 40's version of spitfires or Hurricanes). For me the D520 was the exact counterpart to the ME109 so it should have the same atk/def/range. You may need to introduce the MS406 which was outstanding on manoeuvers but to slow to be really effective. MS 406 should have an Atk/def below ME109/Dewotine. Remember than between May and June 40 French Air force destroyed 1000 German planes for the lost of 350 their own. Every captured pilot has been sent in UK as they knew things were going very bad on the ground… Those 1000 pilot certainly were a heavy loss to Luftwaffe when the time came where they bombed UK.

1941 needs to see some upgraded Spit/Me/Dewotine. Spit V ? ME109F, Dewotine550 (faster version with a lot more powerful engine and heated gun system which tended to freeze at high altitude).

Stuka : I think the ATK value is excellent. They are a bit cheap imho comparing to their power and to Tough. Those planes were totaly naked when confronted to fighters, casualties were outstandings when they had to (dog)fight. Their defense should be lowered imho to reflect this fragility.

Soviet Guards Infantry : To weak. Those were elite troops and imho their caracteristic should be upgraded. Soviet footmen in 42 had really good guns (PPSh41 was the best SMG in the world at this moment) and brigaded MachineGuns were oftenly attached to Front troops in order to increase firepower. They had a better organizations and even if casualties were horrible, all in all they had a lot more experience of the front.

Submarine Typ VII yard is producing Uboot to fast. 1 per week is enormous (even if reallistic). In my game the atlantic is really swarmed with Unterseeboote as I produced a lot of Typ IX and had so many others through the wonder.

Well for the moment that's all I can say considering I am only mid 41 in my game (Turn 96 out 600). I still have a lot to see.

Russian Aritllery : Cheap and Powerfull. I would lower the price of the Soviet Artillery and keep its actual atk ratios. Soviet always fielded enormous quantity of artillery and liked to mass shell before attaking.

German Artillery : I would increase the cost and increase slightly the performance. At least to put it above the mobile Art value. German guns were very good, fire control was very good thanks to observation planes. Even if outnumbered by Soviet/US they should be all in all superior (at least until 44).

Keep the good job !
 
Simu,

Thank you for the positive words.

It seems like you have established very good positions early in
the scenario. Its interesting to see that Soviet is not as hard to deal with
as I thought before I released version 2.0.

ME-110:

I think you have a point here. Its possible I will change its stats.

Gneisenau and Bismarck:

Notes have been taken.
I will look over the the heavy ship classes before the release of version 2.1.

Dewotine 520:

Interesting info. I will recheck my sources and consider new stats.

Stuka :

Yes they were very vulnerable confronted with AA-fire. Its possible the
defense-factor should be decreased somewhat.

Soviet Guards Infantry :

OK I will look over their stats again.

Submarine Typ VII:

One solution can also be to give Britain auto-production of detroyers.

Russian Aritllery:

Yes I think you right. Its a problem though that AI not can use artillery
for offensives.

German Artillery: Changes will be made with regard to the German Mobile Artillery,
since it seems to be to strong now.

Thank you for your comments and welcome back.

Rocoteh
 
If I may throw me two cents in:

Yes the Me 110 should be made weaker but keep its range advantage.
I guess with map 2.1 the situation will improve for the British since the Germans can not provoke Me109 - Spitfire dogfights to make the Brits loose their key fighter units. Using Me110 to suppress British airforce will be as constly as reality.

Can t really comment on the ships as land rat.

"Dewotine 520" is actually spelled Dewoitine 520.
However some sources indicate problems with the armament despite very good flight performance. Since the Reich captured many planes in good condition and some 75 planes were produced during occupation they were added to the Luftwaffe repertoire. However IIRC they were only used as advanced trainers not as actual combat aircraft, I think Italy actually used them as fighters. This could hint to the fact that the board weapons had in fact some problems.
A guy at my university confirmed me that a technical documentation of this plane by the Luftwaffe (L.Dv.T. 2977/Fl (Luftwaffe Dienstvorschrift Technik IIRC)) survived the war but I was not able to get to know where to get a copy.

On the Stuka, yes lowering the defense factor would be realistic and force the player to make decisions on which plane to choose.

On mobile attilery. Just decrease the attack stats so that firing that baby does not result in more total damage than firing a heavy gun once.

On Russia, etc: All invasions will be harder in V2.1 because the vastness of terrain and the defender bonus on movement.
 
A few random comments -

1. I would ask all to headline their reports with the traditional format CIV - LEVEL - Version ie. Germans SID v2.0 It is difficult to understand reports without this information at the top.

2. It would appear to me that we have done so much balancing that SID level has become extremely difficult in 2.0 at least for GB and Japan. I will test this shortly by playing Japan at Emperor level. (currently in my first TCW playtest).
 
IarnGreiper said:
If I may throw me two cents in:

Yes the Me 110 should be made weaker but keep its range advantage.
I guess with map 2.1 the situation will improve for the British since the Germans can not provoke Me109 - Spitfire dogfights to make the Brits loose their key fighter units. Using Me110 to suppress British airforce will be as constly as reality.

Can t really comment on the ships as land rat.

"Dewotine 520" is actually spelled Dewoitine 520.
However some sources indicate problems with the armament despite very good flight performance. Since the Reich captured many planes in good condition and some 75 planes were produced during occupation they were added to the Luftwaffe repertoire. However IIRC they were only used as advanced trainers not as actual combat aircraft, I think Italy actually used them as fighters. This could hint to the fact that the board weapons had in fact some problems.
A guy at my university confirmed me that a technical documentation of this plane by the Luftwaffe (L.Dv.T. 2977/Fl (Luftwaffe Dienstvorschrift Technik IIRC)) survived the war but I was not able to get to know where to get a copy.

On the Stuka, yes lowering the defense factor would be realistic and force the player to make decisions on which plane to choose.

On mobile attilery. Just decrease the attack stats so that firing that baby does not result in more total damage than firing a heavy gun once.

On Russia, etc: All invasions will be harder in V2.1 because the vastness of terrain and the defender bonus on movement.

IarnGreiper,

Thank you for your comments.

On Me-110:

Its range advantage will be kept.

Dewotine 520:

Will recheck the sources and decide its stats.

Mobile Artillery:

Yes I will decrease its power in that way.

Russia:

It will hopefully work that way and thus the scenario will
be more interesting.

Welcome back.

Rocoteh
 
My bad for the presentation. Should have wrote :

German - God - V2.0 - Turn 96 (mid41).

Thanks for the quick answers. I have a lot of documentation on ME109 (in german =/ ) and on Dewoitine (sorry for the spelling) but actually this latter is in French ^^ I am looking for some english version of this info to share it here.

My next game will be playing Japan as well as I didn't read a lot of testing for this country.

One of the hardest I am sure. I'll have to study the tech tree carefully but I don't see what kind of Japanese unit could stop a wave of KV-1. Probably a massive Air bombing will stop the soviets and burn the Matildas.
 
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