Your HoTK Wishlist

[Dknight99]

The mod is in hibernation but that doesn't mean we can't dream about the things we would like to see in the future.

So please list down the things you would like to see.

I personally would like to see Zhuge Liang and other Strategists in the game since they were so important in both the history and the novel.

I'm not sure how strategies can be implemented. Any ideas?

 

[deadliver]

No clue. I would like to see a building that can convert rice resources into gold (not sure this building already exists)

 

[Kenjister]

Strategists would have to be implemented in a differnt way, and hopefully the team will eventually decide to make a system for that.

I would like to see some more economic buildings, and maybe a few more UU's for each nation. They don't have to have nifty tricks of thier own, just something to make them different.

What I really want to see however are leader heroes for most of the initial leaders. The leader death/succession is to good to waste!

 

[zup]

Unlimited number of national wonders per city. I don't see why it should be artificially limited. I can change it myself though, so if you feel it is right, don't do anything.

Improved farm yield. I'd love to see farms get another +1 food from some tech. But if it is a balance issue, can you at least tell me which tech would be thematically most appropriate to increase farm yield?

I would not mind more happiness resources but I can live with the current number.

Fix damage to city fortifications for units led by strong bow (ranged attack) general. The unit I tested is Liannu Catapult, no promotions modifying damage, the general is Yue Jin. I have seen them do 8% damage to cities with 100% defense bonus and unmistakeably walls built. And 2% when bombarding a city with only 20% defense from culture. Aren't walls supposed to reduce fortification damage?

 

[starcross]

how about implementing the idea of food supply in the game.Any unit in neutral or enemy lands shall get their life minus every turn. So make a unit name camp that have an AOE effect any units withing this AOE will not get their life minus and also get some bouns the camp should also act like a fortress albeit a moving one and that its def bonus is lesser than a fort.Also this unit will automatically be destroyed in lets say 20 turns unless he is supply by another new unit name food supply.This idea i believe will make the game more fun as its more realistic in warfare

 

[Kenjister]

Well, the problem with food supply is that the AI has really no clue how to work with it... even if it did, the human would have such a large strategic advantage that the AI would be doomed from the start.

What I would like to see in the game is a promo or a unit ability that immobilizes an enemy unit or stack, call it confusion or something, Fall from Heaven has a pretty good system for temporarily immoblized units that maybe you could take a look at. It would add a nice element of randomness, and while not gamebreaking, could force players to stand and fight instead of retreat if confronted by an unexpected stack.

That and a fire attack ability that has a set % chance of going off in a battle, it could create a temporary terrain improvement (flames) that do damage to enemy units entering the tile, with initial damage also done in python. That too would add a slight random element, you would get an initially devestating attack, but might be hampered if say the flames went off on a narrow pass. Alternatively, you could implement a system much like Fall from Heavens magic system where you click a button to attempt a strategy ( in their case, it's magic). The AI understands that it's to 'hit' the button whenever possible, so it would fit well if it was an ability given to a few select units (or legions). The FfH team is quite friendly when it comes to borrowing functions from their mod, so if it interests you, you might want to look into that.

 

[Dknight99]

I really like your idea about the flames and the use of tactics. Maybe something for the advisors in the future?

 

[stmartin]

how about implementing the idea of food supply in the game.Any unit in neutral or enemy lands shall get their life minus every turn. So make a unit name camp that have an AOE effect any units withing this AOE will not get their life minus and also get some bouns the camp should also act like a fortress albeit a moving one and that its def bonus is lesser than a fort.Also this unit will automatically be destroyed in lets say 20 turns unless he is supply by another new unit name food supply.This idea i believe will make the game more fun as its more realistic in warfare

Well, the problem with food supply is that the AI has really no clue how to work with it... even if it did, the human would have such a large strategic advantage that the AI would be doomed from the start.

Food is The problem in that era, so I understand it's really cool if we could put it into the game. As Kenjister pointed out, we have to teach AI how to use whatever mechanic we come up with. So it's all up to whether we could invent a mechanic that's both fun and AI friendly.

What I would like to see in the game is a promo or a unit ability that immobilizes an enemy unit or stack, call it confusion or something, Fall from Heaven has a pretty good system for temporarily immoblized units that maybe you could take a look at. It would add a nice element of randomness, and while not gamebreaking, could force players to stand and fight instead of retreat if confronted by an unexpected stack.

That and a fire attack ability that has a set % chance of going off in a battle, it could create a temporary terrain improvement (flames) that do damage to enemy units entering the tile, with initial damage also done in python. That too would add a slight random element, you would get an initially devestating attack, but might be hampered if say the flames went off on a narrow pass. Alternatively, you could implement a system much like Fall from Heavens magic system where you click a button to attempt a strategy ( in their case, it's magic). The AI understands that it's to 'hit' the button whenever possible, so it would fit well if it was an ability given to a few select units (or legions). The FfH team is quite friendly when it comes to borrowing functions from their mod, so if it interests you, you might want to look into that.

These ideas are both good, I will consider them within the big picture of advisors. I haven't played FfH. In FfH, when a unit cast a spell, is there any particular animation?

 

[Kenjister]

Thanks, after I was read the Romance of the Three Kingdoms books, I was thinking about how awesome the strategies used in battle were and how those could possibly be implemented in the CIV engine. Of course it might of also been inspired by a need to see Zhuge Liang and Zhou Yu doing something in the mod besides languishing in unused leader spots. I'm really looking forward to see what you guys have in store for the Advisors phase!

Yeah, in FfH, they have animations tied to the spell. I'd definitely recommend the mod to play, or if fantasy isn't really your thing, just to look at because it's loaded with new functions that could be very useful in a mod.

EDIT: Just to clarify, the animations don't involve any actual unit movement or anything, usually some other effect seperate from the unit.

 

[AnotherPacifist]

Nice to see some new promotions. But I still don't like the unstructured victories (it's either domination or cultural). How about some simple UHVs? It shouldn't be too hard to code--what's needed is just another Victory.py file.

 

[starcross]

Forts could be make more usefull as in like forts in civ3 any enenmies beside them shall be bombarded provided there arfe archers or catapults in them

 

[stmartin]

Nice to see some new promotions. But I still don't like the unstructured victories (it's either domination or cultural). How about some simple UHVs? It shouldn't be too hard to code--what's needed is just another Victory.py file.

I remembered you gave me some UHV ideas before. Can you give me some more? Because I'm unsure how to implement them.

Forts could be make more usefull as in like forts in civ3 any enenmies beside them shall be bombarded provided there arfe archers or catapults in them

I will keep that idea in mind, thanks.

 

[AnotherPacifist]

So RFC's UHVs are based on the following basic concepts, all having to do with accounting for some part of the game fulfilling certain criteria that can be easily verified by game mechanics. The tough part is to tell the game how to check them without slowing the game to a crawl.

1. The max: achieving max units (whatever type), resources, gold, culture, population or land by or in year x. Controlling x number of shrines/cities/% of land also counts.
2. The quickest: discovering techs, building wonders, adopting a certain civic, etc
3. Getting vassals or DPs in a certain year
4. Never having done something also counts (e.g. never lost a city to barbs or any other civ until certain year)
5. Doing any of the above but at a fixed number (e.g. building x number of buildings by year x, getting y gold in year z, etc) This may be challenging based on the civ played (e.g. it might be easy for Cao Cao to get 10 cities in 210, but difficult for Shan Yue) Spreading Revivalism to 50% of population would be tough to do, but not so for Unification.
6. Making sure the AI doesn't do something

A lot of the above can be achieved indirectly, e.g. as Inca to have no other civs other than Portuguese in Brazil, it must found cities all over or be ready to military take them from the AI. If Sun Ce has a goal of limiting Cao Cao's expansion south of Shou Chun, he must war on the necessary warlords (maybe even Liu Bei).

So as you can see, the ideas can be limitless. I suggest reading RFC's Victory.py file for ideas on coding (obviously I'm no programmer). I'm also not very up to date on the book, so tiny civs like Shan Yue I might have a hard time coming up with victory conditions.

Most of the first 2 criteria in RFC are historic (e.g. Rome has a lot of infrastructure at the height of the empire and the 2nd criteria requires at least the Western Empire to be built). The 3rd criteria is often a challenge against what has happened in history (for Rome it's to have never lost a city to barbarians until 1000 AD). Something like this for HOTK would be for Liu Zhang to vassalize Liu Bei, or for Cao Cao to conquer x number of Sun Ce's cities around the time of the Battle of Red Cliffs. Since there are so many minor civs in ROTK, many of their criteria would have to be ahistoric--e.g. for Gongsun Zan to survive beyond a certain year.

And don't forget the synergy between unique powers/buildings/units and UHVs--for example, Portugal's UP helps it to reveal more of the map even though they spawn later than the Dutch, who have the same UHV at a different year. Something like Ma Teng to have the largest number of horsemen, Sun Ce having the largest navy in the world would be fitting.

 

[Kenjister]

I too am a fan of RFC, and UHV's sound like they could cut down especially on the late game mop-up for the bigger civs, and provide an alternative method of victory for the smaller ones. The only real hard parts would be to ensure they're hard enough so the AI doens't win by survival (since only Liu Yao tends to die off in any short time), and to make sure they're fun.

I think it would be quite challenging though to come up with UHV's since the game isn't as structured as RFC.
Still, they're fun to brainstorm, especially since it usually brings to light some either really cool challenges or an awesome synergy that a civ has with a certain playstyle.
I was thinking though for Cao Cao, we could have a UHV that requires rapid expansion to various cities he controled by certain dates, though it could be problematic since time flies so quickly in the game.


EDIT: A new item for the Wishlist! A Yellow Turban Rebellion scenario!

 

[Darthvegeta800]

I'm new to Civ IV so i don't know yet how many options it has. But perhaps certain events would be interesting such as the Yellow Turban Rebellion arising from a certain year in an early scenario?
Basically certain events from the books that suddenly take place at a given date.

 

[starcross]

can the ingame fort graphics be change to that of others? i would very much like the fort graphics to be similar to that of the game name "legend of cao cao" forts, hope stmartin u understand what i m talking about.And there are also some nice music from tt game too.Can also take into account of that game terrain graphics too

 

[stmartin]

can the ingame fort graphics be change to that of others? i would very much like the fort graphics to be similar to that of the game name "legend of cao cao" forts, hope stmartin u understand what i m talking about.And there are also some nice music from tt game too.Can also take into account of that game terrain graphics too

I'll take the music suggestion, and leave the rest to Bakuel.

 

[starcross]

how about having "ZHOU" region meaning provincial territory. The place where gong sun zhan is You zhou,yuan shao reigon is Ji zhou so on and so forth. Only by controling all the cities in that "zhou" will u be able to built that region unique units as in Ji zhou makes jizhou crossbowman while controlling all the cities of youzhou will allow u to make white horse units but all these units can only be made in those specified regions only.Also having control of all the cities in that region have a bonus to all those cities in it.The bonus could be like reduce maintainence or all units built have more exp

 

[stmartin]

That do sound like a good idea, and relatively easy to implement too, we could make an event, trigger it when a player take control of all cities of one Zhou. The key thing is, I don't want it to be purely aesthetic, but to have some game play value as well. We need to come up with something that's really attractive to players, so they are really motivated to conquer all the cities. Also, the bonus should not be overpowered.

The Zhou concept, that is, political provinces, will be in the game eventually, I was thinking putting it in the game when 'political heroes' are in the game too, so that we can have a little bureaucracy thing. I was thinking about assigning cities to heroes.

 

[Kenjister]

Whatever happened to the Ambush and Raiding promotions that were in earlier, but didn't have an effect? It would be nice to see those implemented in some way or another.