[Vote] (2-58) Reduce International Trade Route Gold

Approval Vote for Proposal #58 (instructions below)

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azum4roll

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Voting Instructions
Players, please cast your votes in the poll above. Vote "Yea" if you'd be okay if this proposal was implemented. Vote "Nay" if you'd be okay if this proposal wasn't implemented.

You can vote for both options, which is equivalent to saying "I'm fine either way", but adds to the required quorum of 10 votes in favor.

All votes are public. If you wish, you can discuss your choice(s) in the thread below. You can change your vote as many times as you want until the poll closes.

VP Congress: Session 2, Proposal 58
Part 2 of the 2 proposals that aim to reduce gold income. This conflicts with the proposals that try to change gold yields and gold buildings like the Market one, but is not exactly a counterproposal.

Current code for international trade route gold:
C++: 
            case YIELD_GOLD:
                {
                    int iBaseValue = GetTradeConnectionBaseValueTimes100(kTradeConnection, eYield, bAsOriginPlayer);
                    int iOriginPerTurnBonus = GetTradeConnectionGPTValueTimes100(kTradeConnection, eYield, bAsOriginPlayer, true);
                    int iDestPerTurnBonus = GetTradeConnectionGPTValueTimes100(kTradeConnection, eYield, bAsOriginPlayer, false);
                    int iResourceBonus = MOD_BALANCE_CORE_RESOURCE_MONOPOLIES ? 0 : GetTradeConnectionResourceValueTimes100(kTradeConnection, eYield, bAsOriginPlayer);
                    int iExclusiveBonus = GetTradeConnectionExclusiveValueTimes100(kTradeConnection, eYield);
                    int iPolicyBonus = GetTradeConnectionPolicyValueTimes100(kTradeConnection, eYield);
                    int iYourBuildingBonus = GetTradeConnectionYourBuildingValueTimes100(kTradeConnection, eYield, bAsOriginPlayer);
                    int iTheirBuildingBonus = GetTradeConnectionTheirBuildingValueTimes100(kTradeConnection, eYield, bAsOriginPlayer);
                    int iTraitBonus = GetTradeConnectionOtherTraitValueTimes100(kTradeConnection, eYield, bAsOriginPlayer);

                    // Cultural influence bump
                    int iInfluenceBoost = GET_PLAYER(kTradeConnection.m_eOriginOwner).GetCulture()->GetInfluenceTradeRouteGoldBonus(kTradeConnection.m_eDestOwner);
                    //Minor Civ Bump
                    int iMinorCivGold = GetMinorCivGoldBonus(kTradeConnection, eYield, true);

                    int iModifier = 100;
                    int iDistanceModifier = GetTradeConnectionDistanceValueModifierTimes100(kTradeConnection);
                    int iDomainModifier = GetTradeConnectionDomainValueModifierTimes100(kTradeConnection, eYield);
                    int iResourceModifier = MOD_BALANCE_CORE_RESOURCE_MONOPOLIES ? GetTradeConnectionResourceValueTimes100(kTradeConnection, eYield, bAsOriginPlayer) : 0;
                    int iOriginRiverModifier = GetTradeConnectionRiverValueModifierTimes100(kTradeConnection, eYield, bAsOriginPlayer);
                    int iCorporationModifier = GetTradeConnectionCorporationModifierTimes100(kTradeConnection, eYield, bAsOriginPlayer);
                    int iOpenBordersModifier = GetTradeConnectionOpenBordersModifierTimes100(kTradeConnection, eYield, bAsOriginPlayer);

#if defined(HH_MOD_API_TRADEROUTE_MODIFIERS)
                    int iPolicyModifier = GetTradeConnectionPolicyModifierTimes100(kTradeConnection, eYield, bAsOriginPlayer);
#endif

                    iValue = iBaseValue;
                    iValue += iOriginPerTurnBonus;
                    iValue += iDestPerTurnBonus;
                    iValue += iResourceBonus;
                    iValue += iExclusiveBonus;
                    iValue += iYourBuildingBonus;
                    iValue += iTheirBuildingBonus;
                    iValue += iPolicyBonus;
                    iValue += iTraitBonus;

                    // Cultural influence bump
                    iValue += iInfluenceBoost;
                    iValue += iMinorCivGold;

                    iModifier -= iDistanceModifier;
                    iModifier += iDomainModifier;
                    iModifier += iResourceModifier;
                    iModifier += iOriginRiverModifier;
                    iModifier += iCorporationModifier;
                    iModifier += iOpenBordersModifier;

#if defined(HH_MOD_API_TRADEROUTE_MODIFIERS)
                    iModifier += iPolicyModifier;
#endif

                    CvCity* pOriginCity = NULL;
                    CvPlot* pStartPlot = GC.getMap().plot(kTradeConnection.m_iOriginX, kTradeConnection.m_iOriginY);
                    if (pStartPlot)
                    {
                        pOriginCity = pStartPlot->getPlotCity();
                    }
                    if (pOriginCity != NULL)
                    {
                        if (pOriginCity == GET_PLAYER(kTradeConnection.m_eOriginOwner).getCapitalCity() || pOriginCity->GetCityReligions()->IsHolyCityAnyReligion())
                            iModifier += GET_PLAYER(kTradeConnection.m_eOriginOwner).GetPlayerPolicies()->GetNumericModifier(POLICYMOD_TRADE_CAPITAL_MODIFIER);

                        iModifier += GET_PLAYER(kTradeConnection.m_eOriginOwner).GetPlayerPolicies()->GetNumericModifier(POLICYMOD_TRADE_MODIFIER);
                    }

                    iValue *= iModifier;
                    iValue /= 100;
                    iValue = max(100, iValue);
                }
                break;

Current constant values:
MOD_BALANCE_CORE_RESOURCE_MONOPOLIES = 1
INTERNATIONAL_TRADE_BASE = 100
INTERNATIONAL_TRADE_CITY_GPT_DIVISOR = 65
INTERNATIONAL_TRADE_EXCLUSIVE_CONNECTION = 0

Proposal:
Reduce INTERNATIONAL_TRADE_BASE to 80 and increase INTERNATIONAL_TRADE_CITY_GPT_DIVISOR to 80.

Rationale:
Ever since resource diversity was fixed to actually work, international trade routes have been a major gold income for every player. This would reduce the gold gain so that you need a resource diversity modifier of around 1.25 to make trade routes as strong as before.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
less trade route gold would also effectively reduce the poverty needs requirement, yes?
I definitely support this, then. presently when you don't have international trade routes, the poverty unhappiness gets to be huge, even in cities with every possible gold building and some villages.
 
rkkn said:
less trade route gold would also effectively reduce the poverty needs requirement, yes?
Click to expand...
If I remember correctly the yields from trade routes have recently been made exempt from the calculation of the global median which determines needs. So reducing trade route gold would actually lead to an increase in unhappiness from poverty.
 
Stalker0 said:
so what does this actually DO. Aka will this reduce TR gold by 10%, 50%?
Click to expand...
TR gold should be roughly 80% as much as current. Roughly because there are also policy, building and trait (just Portugal?) yields that are not reduced.
 
Agreed we need TR gold nerf. I've been talking about this as the main source of gold inflation.
However, we also need a way to emphasize the importance of interaction between civs, and completely nerfing eTR might discourage ppl from using them all together. Maybe exchanging gpt for more science/culture to make them valuable for a different reason while still treating the gold inflation issue at the same time.
 
I don't really see ETR as being discouraged by this change. Unless you're trading with an allied CS (which is still an ETR, but doesn't involve "interaction between civs"), there's no overlap of yields (civ-specific situations notwithstanding, e.g. Ottomans) between ETR and ITR. I don't think having less gold on the route changes whether you pick gold+culture+science or food or production for the route.
 
ma_kuh said:
I don't really see ETR as being discouraged by this change. Unless you're trading with an allied CS (which is still an ETR, but doesn't involve "interaction between civs"), there's no overlap of yields (civ-specific situations notwithstanding, e.g. Ottomans) between ETR and ITR. I don't think having less gold on the route changes whether you pick gold+culture+science or food or production for the route.
Click to expand...
I'm curious to hear from lower level players on this one. At higher levels I completely agree. the amount of science and culture you get is more than worth the TR even with gold nerfs. Lower difficulties though tend to get lower yields for ETRs, so curious what they think.
 
ma_kuh said:
I don't really see ETR as being discouraged by this change. Unless you're trading with an allied CS (which is still an ETR, but doesn't involve "interaction between civs"), there's no overlap of yields (civ-specific situations notwithstanding, e.g. Ottomans) between ETR and ITR. I don't think having less gold on the route changes whether you pick gold+culture+science or food or production for the route.
Click to expand...
I'm only looking at this from equibalance point that assumes eTR and iTR are balanced against each other, thus any nerf to one side should accompany a buff to keep the same balance, else we might have another round of rebalance when ppl realized one is now better/worse than the other.
And personally I think gpt from eTR should get nerfed a bit more than currently suggested (preferably half the current amount) to really stomp down the gold inflation, thus at the same time we should think about balancing eTR and iTR in that case.
 
Exactly my point of equibalance if we're to reduce gpt from eTR by that much to combat inflation, by bumping up science and culture gain instead.
 
Stalker0 said:
I'm curious to hear from lower level players on this one.
Click to expand...
Not sure if this qualifies as lower level but on Epic Emperor I routinely find early ETR to give a few points of culture or science in addition to a handful of gold. Sometimes it feels like the science/culture is a little low, but it makes me value ally CS routes higher; they can basically be swapped for civ ETR for more of the non-gold resources, if that's what you want. I think this reduction will apply to CS ETR gold as well, so it should still be true that Civ ETR are highest in gold, Ally CS ETR are highest in science/culture, and ITR are good for standing up a new city (although on Epic I do sometimes feel like it's a hefty time commitment for this purpose). Friend CS don't really feel worthwhile, that might be something to look into...

Maybe I could see adding a static +1 science/culture to Civ ETR to help compensate this a little (it would help give everyone a little more culture to offset tourism boosts too), and to make sure the yields exist even when you're ahead. But I'd be compelled to put that on both sides of the TR, so TR target also gets this buff.
nekokon said:
Exactly my point of equibalance...
Click to expand...
I don't think your premise is correct: ETR aren't balanced, that's why gold is coming down. So there doesn't need to be a compensatory buff to counteract the gold decrease. That's just a matter of opinion though, so we can agree to disagree on that point.
 
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