AI Attitude & My Reputation

[heikeott]

Everything I Ever Wanted to know about Attitude & Reputation?

I think the AI Civ attitudes towards me are some of the more important factors affecting the game (depending on style of play, of course). I have not found a good compendium of information about the factors determining my reputation and the AI's attitude anywhere (although I'm sure if there is one that I've missed it will be pointed out very quickly!), and wondering if we could have one here. Just a few of the things I would like to know are:

1) What determines an AI Civ's *initial* attitude towards me at first meeting?
2) What things affect this attitude, and how strongly? (i.e., if I have a stray worker inside his borders but trade him my WM on the same turn, which weighs more heavily? Are there specific things I can do to get, for example, from Furious to Polite? Are there some things they will never forgive?
3) What are the possible attitudes and what effect do they have on the AI Civ's interaction with me? (Are Furious, Annoyed, Cautious, Polite, and Gracious all there are? I kept waiting for Friendly.. ?)
4) Do things like cultural affiliation, location on map, government, etc. affect attitude?
5) Does my reputation affect the attitude, and if so how?
6) What are the "levels" of reputation, and how can I tell what my reputation is? Does it start out spotless and stay that way unless I screw it up, or do I have to earn a good reputation?

Hoping I'm not the only one interested in this...

 

[wilbill]

There are at least two of us, Heike. Great questions - some I've been wrestling with myself for a while. I've never seen anything definitive on this specific topic - although we all know the things that can affect a reputation. My best guesses, based purely on random observation, not experimentation...

1) I think the AI's aggresiveness level determines (at least partially) its initial attitude toward you.

2) There must be several factors that contribute, but one I've noticed is that signing an ROP almost always seems to raise the attitude at least one level.

3) I've never seen any more than the 5 you list. I keep waiting for "Groveling In Your Presence" LOL

4) Can't verify, but I think cultural affiliation does. The others ???

5) The big question... I'm sure that a negative rep action (ROP rape for example) affects the attitude of the victim, but I'm not sure it affects other civs. I've seen indications both ways.

6) I'd never thought of this one...

Maybe we can come up with some experimental setups to check these things out.

 

[wilbill]

Well, crap! Now you've got me thinking about this....

Re: #4 - Everything I've read about "Preferred Government" for the AI's indicates that it's purely an internal/AI thing, i.e. this civ prefers to be a Republic if possible. But does it also affect that civ's attitude toward the human? Is there built-in friction between say, a Communist AI and a Democratic human? And if not, should there be?

 

[morkaphi]

I'll try my best to answer these questions, and please correct me if I'm wrong.

1) How much your civ is similar to the AI civ you meet, such as traits, aggressive level, preferred government style, and relative strength. The more alike you are, the more the AI civ likes you, initially.

2) Many factors affect the attitude. There is a long list of things that may make the AI mad at you. (your units wonder in the AI border, you're stronger/more advanced, you don't trade with them, you have a history of aggressiveness, etc...) I don't think there is anything that can clearly measure how strong the effects are, but you got the idea... If you want to improve their attitude towards you, signing ROPs and MPPs, giving the AI gifts, and fighting common foe(s) will make immediate impacts, though it doesn't mean they will stay polite to you once the relationships end. If you trade with them on a constant basis, they will usually carry a nice attitude towards you. They will never forgive ROP rapes, IMHO, though this is probably debatable.

3) I think you got them all, excluding "Friendly".

4) I only know that the government type does affects the AI's attitude. Zululand tends to dislike you if you're under demo, Americand dislike you if you're under monarchy, etc. Also, if you're strong in culture (or other aspects, $$$, military power, etc.), they tend to dislike you as well.

5) Reputation and attitude are two very different aspects, you can be a notorious backstabber and everyone loves you, and you can have a perfect reputation and the entire world hates you. Catt and satchel have some great posts regarding this issue, I will try to find them.

6) Again, there is no clear measure about how your reputation is. However, you can tell from how the AI civs are willing to treat with you. If they no longer accepts your per turn payment/lux/resources for a tech or map, you know your reputation is pretty much tarnished.

Yes, I believe you start with a spotless reputation. If you spill your milk, it will be difficult, if not impossible, to earn it back.

 

[morkaphi]

Excellent posts.

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=444867

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=40013

 

[wilbill]

Good threads, morkaphi. I hadn't read the "relations (furious)" thread. Catt's take on the subject as usual was lucid and thoughtful. And, I believe, correct as far as it went. Satchel's thread is truly "Everything Most Of Us Need To Know About Diplomacy". There were some statements made in the first thread that I have to disagree with. For example something like "if you go to war with a civ, you'll never have good relations with them again" or "they'll always be furious with you". Simply not true. On many occasions I've declared war the "right" way (no ROP, no troops in their border, etc.) fought a "good little war" for limited objectives, and 20 or 30 turns later that civ has ended up being a pretty good neighbor. In one case they ended up voting for me in the UN. This was in PTW which brings up the question "what were those AI tweeks in PTW?" Could any of them have dealt with their flexibility regarding attitude and reputation?
But I think heikeott was looking for something more quantifiable and verifiable. I certainly am. I'm not sure it'll really be possible to get this kind of info experimentally - or whether it'll really be worth knowing, anyway, lol. But I may give it a try.

 

[morkaphi]

Originally posted by wilbill
On many occasions I've declared war the "right" way (no ROP, no troops in their border, etc.) fought a "good little war" for limited objectives, and 20 or 30 turns later that civ has ended up being a pretty good neighbor. In one case they ended up voting for me in the UN.

That's probably because you kept your wars short and honorable. AFAIK, if you fight a long war (well, I can't really define "long" here ) with someone, they surely will hate you forever, and also your people will kind of get things "personal" with your foe. I don't remember which thread that was, there was a discussion about how your people become unhappy once you stop fighting the civ they hate, and how they trigger WLTKD when you restart the war against them. Ironic, but that happened to me too. Sometimes your people may simply want you to get rid of someone.

Originally posted by wilbill
But I think heikeott was looking for something more quantifiable and verifiable. I certainly am. I'm not sure it'll really be possible to get this kind of info experimentally - or whether it'll really be worth knowing, anyway, lol. But I may give it a try.

I don't know if there is anything available to make the reputation thing quantifable. There are too many factors involved, and it may be very difficult to create a model/scenario to test it out.

 

[zagnut]

The factors that have an impact on your reputation are clearly set out in the second link in Morkaphi's post above. The thing that is not clear is what factors effect the "attitude" of the other civs toward you. This is whether they are Furious, Annoyed, etc. There is definitely a difference between the 2 concepts.

In this month's GOTM I had a good reputation because from the middle of the game on the other civs were willing to trade me gold per turn. That is the indication that you have a good rep. However, all of the civs, and there were 7 of the 8 left at that time, were furious with me. Could it just be that I was in the lead at that point?

What I can't figure out is how the AI determines the attitude of the other civs toward me. I have not heard of any game formula that governs this, but there must be one.

 

[Scyphax]

I have noticed after accepting a culture flip the attitude from the civ the city flipped from went from polite to cautious.

Does establishing an embassy improve relations?
I have noticed improvements in relations after establishing embassies but I must admit I have not observed closely and improved relations could be due to other factors.

 

[wilbill]

Yes, embassies do improve attitude. I think it's safe to say that the AI's like open communication and trade. Generally anything that promotes those conditions will improve attitude.

 

[heikeott]

Ok, I'm starting to see some patterns. Perhaps if I start with what I have you will see what I'm trying to do and understand the info I'm looking for by the gaps...

Reputation

Initial: Spotless
Levels: Spotless, ... ?? .., Perfidious (How many levels, & what are they??

Action Effect
Abuse of ROP Very Negative
Breach of Trade Deal Negative
Declare war w/units in Terr Negative
Breach of treaty Negative
Completion of Treaty Positive no effect?
Completion of per-turn deal Positive no effect?

Affects:
1. Whether AI's will trade with you, especially per-turn deals
2. Ability to get ROPs, MPPs, alliances, etc.


Attitude
Initial: Polite - Furious, depending on factors:
1. Cultural affiliation or bias
2. Info about you from other civs they have contact with
3. Relative size/power/culture
4. Method of initial contact (ie probably Annoyed if you have an Archer strolling through their Capital's front yard)
5. Governnment type

Levels:
1. Furious (worst)
2. Annoyed
3. Cautious
4. Polite
5. Gracious (best)

Action Effect
Luxury/Resource trade Positive
Tech Trade Positive
ROP or Alliance Very Positive
Gift of map/gold/tech Positive
Using their favored Gov Slightly Positive
At war with their enemy Positive ??

Get out of my Terr.! Negative
Unit in their Terr. Negative
Refusal to trade Negative
Refusal to give tribute Negative
Demand for tribute Negative
Ignoring them Negative
War Very Negative
City flips to you Negative
Using their hated Gov Slightly Negative

Affects:
1. Likelihood of war declaration
2. Trade prices
3. Whether Civ will sign MPPs or Alliances against you

Now you see what I'm trying to do - develop a "chart" or reference for this? So help me out with additions & corrections please! Maybe after it's all tweaked and corrected, I can make it a nice table and ask for it to be added as a downloadable file.

 

[morkaphi]

Again, trying my best here...

On the rep part, I don't think there is anything that can level it on a precise manner. ROP rape and having units in the AI territory when war is declared both generates very negative impacts on your rep. Completion of per turn deals does have positive effects, but probably very small, since deals are not supposed to be broken.

About the effects, a bad rep makes it extremely difficult to sign MPPs and ROPs, but I think alliances are a lot easier to make as long as you can pay what they want. (Every civ has a price. )

Attitudes: I believe that in most cases contacts are made before you have a chance to switch the government (pangaea/continents), and the attitude is also decided by the preferred government type, which is hardcoded to individual civs.

Attitude levels: you got them all.

Regarding trades, I think all the trades create positive effects. If you make deals sweeter by selling things for dirt, they consider you a good trading partner and tend to like you more. I'm under the impression that they don't like it if you meet them without having any deal done, so I usually give them a buck if I don't see any feasible deal available.

If you have an MPP/ROP with them, and/or fighting a common foe, they like you too.

Demanding for tribute certainly ticks them off. If you want a war but don't want to declare it, it's a good way to first click "take this or suffer!" many times to make them extremely furious at you, then ask them to move out of your territory. It almost always succeeds that I think this can be considered an exploit.

Heikeott, I think you summed it up on a very detailed manner!