Are camps useful in C3C?

[vmxa]

DrumStudent had a post that lead me to consider why I stopped using camps. They were very useful in the PTW days, but I am not sure, if it was a function of the level of those games or some change in Conquest that lead me to drop that tactic.

I am going to run a game at the Warlord level as that is the level DrumStrudent was playing and see, if the concpet will still be viable at even low levels. To that end, I used the same civ he had, Hiawatha. Same land iirc continents. I was not sure of the other stuff, so I used Sedentary barbs to keep them from having much impact and random nations.

I will trade during the AA with out holding out for more contacts, to not make it harder on the AI.

 

[vmxa]

2470BC: I got a settler from a hut out past the lake in this screen shot and it has gotten back and founded Niagra Falls. NF started on an archer with no barrack for now. Worker I started with is on the Wines.

I made another worker after a couple of warriors to help with getting the camps going. Master Zen was kind enough to create a pix of a planned layout for camps, which I still have after all these years. You can have as many camps as you feel makes sense.

Here I will only go with 2. One for settlers and one for units. These will have to slip in other builds at times to keep them on kilter and to aid the empire. Other towns will toss in same from time to time, but mostly not.

In the event of a war, you may want to add another camp for units, but could make a town take on the roll. Truth is at this level that is probably not an issue. The extra contented citizens makes keeping the camps at min structures. That is the idea in the first place.

Settler/worker camp you want to have a food bonus and a granary. The units camp needs a barrack only. At Monarch you may need a temple in the units camp, depending on the lux situation.

The first settler comes out of the capitol and founds Grand River to be the settler camp. It has the cow and a river and two BG's to use, if needed. I will make a worker there to get the BG's improved. Salamanca is making a second settler for the units camp. NF is going to just be a core town.

The beauty of camps is that you use all your tiles during the first parts of the game, but later you disband them to let those core towns have the full 21 tiles. Possibly the reason I gave this up was that I was not playing to the point where I had Sanitation, so no reason to have 21 tiles.

2490BC: pop Masonry and find Greece. They have three cows just outside of their borders, lucky.
2270BC: found Allegheny, start a rax. Salamanca starts a temple as does NF. Grand River starts a granary.
2190BC: never seen this before. A barb walks onto a hut. So someone popped barbs, but the barb did not pop the hut.
2150BC: I see now that there is a barb camp near, so not a hut. I kill barb and pop hut on same move and get Myst.
2110BC: Finally learn BW (not sure that was what it was) and start Writing at 100% now.
2030BC: bust the barb camp, love barbs on Warlord.
1870BC: darn, I messed up the settings and have roaming barbs. That expalins the barb on the hut.
1790BC: another tech from a hut and I met Hannibal. I start wonders in the two core towns.
1725BC: drop research to 30.
1700BC: Start CoL, make embassy. See Hittites are sitting on 30 shields for a settler at size 2. Seen that many times.

It is hideous. I luck out and time the granary just right and off we go on 5 turn settlers. Archers now rolling from the other camp. I normally do not even care about timing a granary.

1525BC: Found Catt.
1225BC: Got philo and took Rep and revolted. I drew 3 turns, Warlord is sick. I only had to flip one pop in Salamanca to keep size 8 happy, yahoo. 7 towns.

 

[vmxa]

1150BC: we are a Republic now. IW in 4 at 50%. Put Tonawanda on a worker. It was on wealth as it got 2 turns of growth to be able to get to size 2 in time. Hittites started Oracle, but I am only 17 turns out now. They may be able to cascade to Pyramids, so I may swap my towns.

Wait, I check and two know IW, so I trade (this is silly) Pottery and Write to Alex for IW. Up research to 70 for 4 turns on Math. All are down at least three techs.

Now that I think about it, no need to switch either. Hittites can only have 15 to 20 shields. NF has around 150. Athens is far ahead of the Hittites, but I doubt they have more than 1/2 of NF's shields and no chance to gain as I have a dedicated worker for both wonder towns.

I underestimated the speed of the AI on this level at expanding, so I should have added another camp or two. One to make workers and a few settlers and I would be much farther in my own expansion. I would switch a core town, but they have too many shields into their builds right now. I also have the problem that I cannot expand in two of the directions due to the sea.

925BC: I had begun to use Tonawan to make workers every 5 turns as I need more than I have. Poly next turn.
850BC: Warlord level and in Republic, I do not really need a camp for troops that badly now. I have Horses and Iron being connected, so I will just make MW to replace the archers. Disband the archers on builds. Poly in and Map next turn at 10%.

825BC: going with Construction, tempted to go with Currency on the basis that I would expect the AI to go for Construction ahead of Currency and that could save me a few beakers. The truth is I probably can do both, before they do either. I do not have 3 lux, so markets can wait a bit and I may need an aqua, yeah that is my story.

800BC: Oracle done, so I drop lux to 10 and start MoM. Horses up, so MW's are being made in the camp now. BTW I did not make any spears as I have told others to not make them at this level.

775BC: archer busts another barb camp and we are slowly getting roads out in front of the settlers. Need to irrigate Tonawan to grow fast enough to pop out workers. I started Catt on Temple Of Artemis, just for giggles.
650BC: start Lit, none have learn Philo so far. I guess Oil Springs will start on the FP after the temple finishes.

570BC: start on Currency in 4.
450BC: I think this is a good place to stop the test. I finished MoM and the Pyramids. I am working on Feudalism in 5. I have Silks, but not connected yet.

15 towns and a settler on station next turn. Still a bit behind in my workers at 12, but that can be fixed soon. Once the free granaries get filled. Salamanca and NF are getting markets and libs and then can go back to making wonders far faster than the AI. One galley out and making another. FP started. Tof A well underway and will pick up speed as I get it larger and there are several workers there to get the tiles improved.

So does using camps help or just a waste of time, a toss up? I would need to take the save and run with no camps and see what happens. That may take sometime to get back to. I did not place any coastal towns, till recently, so did not even start on those two wonders. You could build up Caughnawaga quickly and make the Lighthouse.

You will get a free temples down the road and just add a few workers after they make some roads and mines. Surely sooner than they will get it built. Last I looked they did not have Map Making.

Just to see what number of towns were in the Regent article as a comparison, the closest turn was in the 3xxBC and all I could see was 8 towns. That may not be the correct number and there were wars in that game, but it does suggest camps could be useful at low levels.

I wonder what they could do on a historical run on chief?

 

[vmxa]

I see I still have the 450BC save, if anyone wants to run it a bit further. If anyone plays out the map with no camps, post what you find out here. Who knows, if I will get back to try it myself. Whoops it is 430BC save.

 

[del62]

I guess the reason camps may be more useful in PTW/Vanilla is RCP, in conquests you are not looking for equidistant cities to your capital, the other factor in this game is popping luck.

 

[vmxa]

The huts are not a factor in terms of expansion, which is all I was testing. The settler does impact expansion a little. Getting a settler at this level is very common, as long as you are not making one. It was not used to make a camp though.

There are only two pooints of interest for me:
1) would I be able to have the same or better expansion normally
2) being able to use all the tiles the whole game and still being able to have 21 tiles when you get to Sanitation.

If 1 and 2 could be done without camps, then they are of no value. I wish I had run the test with out huts, but no one plays that way at low levels. I think the real reason I dropped them is that expansion is not much of an issue above emperor.

It is not that you do not want to expand, but you are not going to peaceful plant 15-20 towns at those levels, unless you have no neighbors. I don't know, that is why I gaveit a test and posted the idea.

 

[Verarde]

What did you mean by camps?
What post did I say that got you thinking about this?

Oh, and I think barbs were at either restless or raging, probably restless.

 

[vmxa]

#1078 iirc in quick answers, the one with a save. I also see I have failed to notice it was a huge map. I used std, so I probably would have more room. It got me thinking about trying to fill in all that land and I remembered the camps.

Camps are just towns that are dedicated to one thing and will be disbanded at some point. So you put them where the can do their job the best and still give back the tiles needed later.

IOW layout the core towns as if they were going to have optimal placement and tuck the camps inbetween. They just borrow the tiles.

 

[vmxa]

Alright the test should have been on a huge map and no huts to remove any luck. Random nations, the full 16. I went with 3 warriors, 2 went out. I am not too concerned with finding others.

3100BC: found Niagra Falls and it starts a granary. Salamanca making a worker.
3000BC: Gibbon says I am the largest with 2 towns.
2750BC: Met Abe and trade Alpha for BW. Salamanca makes 2 more warriors to act as MP's and then will make a settler.
2510BC: found Grand River and it starts a rax. Sal starts a worker.
2350BC: Met Arabia and trade Alpha for CB. Salamanca start temple. BTW Grand River is on a fur.
2110BC: Found Allegheny and start granary. See Silks close by.
2030BC: sent out a settler to found 4th camp. Making spears as I cannot make archers right now.
1950BC: start on WC, it is known by Arabia and both know Masonry.
1870BC: found Cattaraugus starts a worker. Settler out.
1830BC: met Hittites. Start Pryamids in Sal.
1790BC: start on Writing, America has IW. Found Oil Springs.
1650BC: found Tonawanda. Making archers now.
1550BC: found Mauch Chunk.
1525BC: start CoL.
1375BC: Found town.
1350BC: Abe wants to much, so no trade. Trade Write to Arabia for 30, trade CoL for Myst.
1325BC: boat finds Henry and we make two deals getting Wheel and IW. Give soemthing like CB ( it was not CB, but I forgot what) and Writing.
Lisbon making settler with all shields in the box and size 2 for 5 more turns, sigh. Could get Math from Arabia for IW and some other tech and 150 gold. I think I'll do it myself.
1300BC: second boat out, found Centralia.
1250BC: we see Iron and Horses either in borders or soon to be in. Got Republic for free tech and started HBR. 10 towns, so FP could be started. Two settlers on sites.
1150BC: revolt and draw 3 turns. 12 towns. Started on Math.
1050BC: met the Dutch.
1000BC: Abe declares on me, I kill his lone r/warrior with an v/archer.
975BC: start on Poly in 4. Livy says we are the most powerful.
875BC: start on Construction. I am not sending any attackers out.
775BC: iirc the dutch traded me Map Making for a tech and 150 gold.
730BC: 17 towns, start on Lit in 4. Pyramids in 1. Oh, Abe made peace last turn. 1 settler camp, 1 troop camp and 1 worker camp. I had another worker camp, but it was slow, so I let it go idle. 18 workers. Dropped the OCP in favors of the best location.

Centralia is making troops also and Mauch Chunk is going to slip in some, were I to carry on as I would be inclined to remove Abe for his impudence. Kahnawake would soon go on a settler building program to fill in the land vacated by Abe.

Embassy with all known nations. I would not want to speed up the settler pace as it is now a fair trip to a site and we will soon be bumping up against others borders. Abe already attacked, though I doubt others would want to now that MW are coming out.

 

[Daeron]

I think I've only ever used a camp in one game. It was my second demi-god game with the Iroquis. I had a grassland wheat between my capitol and the sea, that couldn't be used by another city. A whale bonus in the sea was out of reach. Since the tiles around were all grassland, it was a food bonus that my capitol didn't need at size 12. So I squeezed in a town to function as a worker pump.

It has to be said that it was at a point where I already finished my initial expansion. And you seem to want to know if it is viable while you're still in the land grabbing phase.

I think it would be viable at least up to monarch.

 

[vmxa]

I think that is about right. The reason I wanted to try it was to see, if I could recommend it to some of that posters that posted their games on those levels and seem to expand slowly and or have few workers (hand in hand often).

I think I will suggest it to them, if the maps look good for it.