RamblinWreck
Chieftain
- Joined
- Aug 11, 2023
- Messages
- 15
When I see discussions about the best civics and religions, they (obviously) tend to be framed in terms of gameplay and strategy. But sometimes, I get in the mood to play how I think a leader would play, even if that's different than how I should play that leader.
In your opinion, what civics and religions provide the best thematic fit for each leader in the game? I'll start with a couple, then edit more in as I think this through.
Leader: Sabathiel
Religion: The Order (founders)
Civics: Theocracy, Social Order (peacetime) or Crusade (wartime), Military State, Conquest, Overcouncil
This one is a pretty obvious one to start with. He's an angel serving Junil, that means a singular focus on both The Order and bringing his enemies to justice. I can also see Apprenticeship being a peacetime alternative to Military State. They're absolutely the most likely candidate for founding The Order, since nobody else has the same level of enthusiasm and fervor for it as them.
Leader: Flauros
Religion: Ashen Veil
Civics: Aristocracy, Sacrifice the Weak, Slavery, Agrarianism, Undercouncil
This one is a perfect fit for flavor and exactly how I would play them even if I didn't care at all about that. The Calabim are all about two things: the vampire ruling class and their food. Aristograrian means more productive and profitable farms, which means the ruling class has more money and more underlings to sacrifice. Sacrifice the Weak and Slavery are perfect for this callous approach. That one extra food is now one extra population, and you don't have to care if they're happy. "Oh, you're not happy living in my kingdom? Die then."
Leader: Kandros Fir
Religion: Runes of Kilmorph (founders)
Civics: Republic, Consumption, Arete, Mercantilism, None
Flavor-wise, this is just the typical gold-obsessed dwarf. For three of the four categories, this makes for a very obvious choice. For government, my initial thought was Aristocracy because of the commerce boost, but the dwarves don't strike me as particularly interested in the power that comes along with wealth. Arete's GP boost in cities with RoK is what made me go with Republic, since that also provides a GP boost, and that synergy gives them the same "feel" to me, and I can't see someone uninterested in power choosing to be a despot, theocrat, or god king. The Luchuirp strike me as more religious than the Khazad once RoK spreads to them, but the Khazad just feel like a natural fit for founding it even if they may not care as much.
Leader: Falamar
Religion: Council Of Esus
Civics: City States, Consumption, Caste System, Foreign Trade, Undercouncil
Despite Octopus Overlords' synergy with the Lanun, in his lore Falamar doesn't seem too interested in the more mystical aspects of things (magic or religion). Esus seems like a much better fit for a charismatic pirate scoundrel. My view of the Lanun empire is that it's more a loose collection of pirate crews and ports, and these civics follow from that.
Leader: Hannah the Irin
Religion: Octopus Overlords (founders)
Civics: City States, Nationhood, Slavery, Foreign Trade, Undercouncil
Hannah, on the other hand, seems like a much better fit with OO. I view her as much more directly interested in using the power of her leadership than Falamar is, wielding the power of the water and the Overlords for conquest (in fact, if Foreign Trade wasn't listed as her favorite civic, I'd use Conquest instead). Absolutely natural fit for founding Overlords and using all of what it offers, from Drown to Hemah to Kraken.
Leader: Amelanchier
Religion: Fellowship Of Leaves (founders)
Civics: Aristocracy, Nationhood, Apprenticeship, Guardian Of Nature, None
Arendal Phaedra is thematically the most attached to aristocracy, but it seems to work for all three Elven leaders. Amelanchier in particular takes a more militaristic route to protecting the trees, hence Nationhood (even if it wasn't listed as his favorite), but in a more "graceful" way rather than overpowering, hence Apprenticeship over Military State. Founding the Fellowship of Leaves and Guardian of Nature is about as obvious as a choice can get.
Leader: Ethne the White
Religion: Empyrean (founders)
Civics: Republic, Liberty, Guilds, Foreign Trade, Overcouncil
Although she isn't described to be as openly pacifist as Einion Logos, the Elohim in general are obviously still a more peaceful and culturally "advanced" civilization. Empyrean is the obvious choice, as they don't value the rigid structure that the Order brings, but are still very directly opposed to evil. These civics are all the last options in each category, and all (except for Guilds) bring a direct boost to culture. This seems like a very natural fit to me. Creative leader plus pacifist civilization says "cultural victory". Although Caste System gives culture from specialists, it doesn't mesh well with the tolerant trait in my mind.
Leader: Einion Logos
Religion: Empyrean (founders)
Civics: Republic, Pacifism, Guilds, Foreign Trade, Overcouncil
While Ethne is a perfect fit for a cultural victory, Einion has that level of synergy with an Altar victory. Having multiple unique religion-based units (Devout and Monk) not tied to any of the major religions in the game makes the Altar (also not tied to any major religion) seem to fit better here than anywhere else, other than the Grigori. Pacifism is his favorite civic and gives a GP boost that ties in well with the Altar, but everything else stays the same.
Leader: Varn Gosam
Religion: Empyrean
Civics: Theocracy, Religion, Apprenticeship, Agrarianism, Overcouncil
I view the Malakim as kind of a Bannor Lite as far as their relationship to their religion goes. So much of their lore revolves around light and the sun that it's only natural to me that the Empyrean plays a major role to them. I know that gameplay-wise, Theocracy and Religion don't mesh well (with Theocracy limiting the potential happiness bonus from having multiple religions in a city), but lore-wise it's the cultural civic that seems to fit the best. Despite this, I still view the Elohim as better "founders" since they seem to align more with the values portion of the religion and not just the sun worship. Apprenticeship and Agrarianism just fit the "desert people" feel.
Leader: Dain the Caswallan
Religion: Fellowship Of Leaves
Civics: Aristocracy, Scholarship, Guilds, Agrarianism, None
Like the lore says, the Amurites are concerned with arcane knowledge and not much else. Aristocracy is listed as Dain the Caswallan's favorite, but I'm not really sure why. None of them seem to fit well, which means I'd normally default to Republic there. Scholarship is obvious. Caste System fits best in-game because of the research bonus, but the mage guilds makes Guilds a clear choice for me. Apprenticeship would be my first alternative. Agrarianism is my go-to choice for "civilization that doesn't seem overly concerned with the economy". Similarly, Fellowship of Leaves seems like the perfect "not really into religion" religion, since it's the only one that doesn't change alignment no matter what. Sometimes I could see Empyrean and Overcouncil for a "horrified by another breaking of the Compact" feel, and Ashen Veil for a "seduced by the promise of unseen knowledge" feel.
Leader: Cardith Lorda
Religion: The Order
Civics: God King, Liberty, Caste System, Foreign Trade, Overcouncil
The lore is very clear that the Kuriotates have a very rigid, centralized power structure in which everything serves the aim of the royal administration. The Order is a natural fit, since this civ is unequivocally good but also desiring a rigid structure. God King is a great fit for this both in lore and gameplay, one of the rare instances it's any good beyond early game. If Liberty wasn't listed as the favorite civic, I would have chosen Social Order. Caste System seems natural for a society where everything has a place and everything serves one aim. Foreign Trade comes from the willingness to take in new people.
Leader: Sandalphon
Religion: Council Of Esus (founders)
Civics: City States, Scholarship, Caste System, Mercantilism, None
The Sidar are an interesting case that took me a while to get a feel for. They're extremely distrustful of the outside world and become shadows to it, making Esus an easy, natural fit. Since it doesn't have any of the pomp or circumstance of the other religions, I have no trouble picturing it coming from Sidar lands. City States is the go-to government civic for any "don't seem to have a strong attachment to each other" people. Scholarship is obvious, with Sandalphon's lore mentioning that the endless pursuit of knowledge is the best perk of immortality for him. I'm really glad Caste System is listed as his favorite civic because otherwise I have no idea what I'd pick for labor. Mercantilism is another clear choice because of the Sidar rarely venturing out into the world beyond their borders. This is the same reason why I don't have them on the Undercouncil, despite founding CoE.
Leader: Os-Gabella
Religion: Ashen Veil (founders)
Civics: Despotism, Sacrifice The Weak, Slavery, Conquest, Undercouncil
This is evil in civic form to me. Ruling with an iron fist, dragging more and more of the world into hell. Although it's a departure from how I usually play the Sheaim, it lines up with the lore. Religion was such an easy choice that it really wasn't one at all. What other faith would the Sheaim ever follow but the Veil? Undercouncil is for evil scheming, and nobody does evil scheming quite like her.
In your opinion, what civics and religions provide the best thematic fit for each leader in the game? I'll start with a couple, then edit more in as I think this through.
Leader: Sabathiel
Religion: The Order (founders)
Civics: Theocracy, Social Order (peacetime) or Crusade (wartime), Military State, Conquest, Overcouncil
This one is a pretty obvious one to start with. He's an angel serving Junil, that means a singular focus on both The Order and bringing his enemies to justice. I can also see Apprenticeship being a peacetime alternative to Military State. They're absolutely the most likely candidate for founding The Order, since nobody else has the same level of enthusiasm and fervor for it as them.
Leader: Flauros
Religion: Ashen Veil
Civics: Aristocracy, Sacrifice the Weak, Slavery, Agrarianism, Undercouncil
This one is a perfect fit for flavor and exactly how I would play them even if I didn't care at all about that. The Calabim are all about two things: the vampire ruling class and their food. Aristograrian means more productive and profitable farms, which means the ruling class has more money and more underlings to sacrifice. Sacrifice the Weak and Slavery are perfect for this callous approach. That one extra food is now one extra population, and you don't have to care if they're happy. "Oh, you're not happy living in my kingdom? Die then."
Leader: Kandros Fir
Religion: Runes of Kilmorph (founders)
Civics: Republic, Consumption, Arete, Mercantilism, None
Flavor-wise, this is just the typical gold-obsessed dwarf. For three of the four categories, this makes for a very obvious choice. For government, my initial thought was Aristocracy because of the commerce boost, but the dwarves don't strike me as particularly interested in the power that comes along with wealth. Arete's GP boost in cities with RoK is what made me go with Republic, since that also provides a GP boost, and that synergy gives them the same "feel" to me, and I can't see someone uninterested in power choosing to be a despot, theocrat, or god king. The Luchuirp strike me as more religious than the Khazad once RoK spreads to them, but the Khazad just feel like a natural fit for founding it even if they may not care as much.
Leader: Falamar
Religion: Council Of Esus
Civics: City States, Consumption, Caste System, Foreign Trade, Undercouncil
Despite Octopus Overlords' synergy with the Lanun, in his lore Falamar doesn't seem too interested in the more mystical aspects of things (magic or religion). Esus seems like a much better fit for a charismatic pirate scoundrel. My view of the Lanun empire is that it's more a loose collection of pirate crews and ports, and these civics follow from that.
Leader: Hannah the Irin
Religion: Octopus Overlords (founders)
Civics: City States, Nationhood, Slavery, Foreign Trade, Undercouncil
Hannah, on the other hand, seems like a much better fit with OO. I view her as much more directly interested in using the power of her leadership than Falamar is, wielding the power of the water and the Overlords for conquest (in fact, if Foreign Trade wasn't listed as her favorite civic, I'd use Conquest instead). Absolutely natural fit for founding Overlords and using all of what it offers, from Drown to Hemah to Kraken.
Leader: Amelanchier
Religion: Fellowship Of Leaves (founders)
Civics: Aristocracy, Nationhood, Apprenticeship, Guardian Of Nature, None
Arendal Phaedra is thematically the most attached to aristocracy, but it seems to work for all three Elven leaders. Amelanchier in particular takes a more militaristic route to protecting the trees, hence Nationhood (even if it wasn't listed as his favorite), but in a more "graceful" way rather than overpowering, hence Apprenticeship over Military State. Founding the Fellowship of Leaves and Guardian of Nature is about as obvious as a choice can get.
Leader: Ethne the White
Religion: Empyrean (founders)
Civics: Republic, Liberty, Guilds, Foreign Trade, Overcouncil
Although she isn't described to be as openly pacifist as Einion Logos, the Elohim in general are obviously still a more peaceful and culturally "advanced" civilization. Empyrean is the obvious choice, as they don't value the rigid structure that the Order brings, but are still very directly opposed to evil. These civics are all the last options in each category, and all (except for Guilds) bring a direct boost to culture. This seems like a very natural fit to me. Creative leader plus pacifist civilization says "cultural victory". Although Caste System gives culture from specialists, it doesn't mesh well with the tolerant trait in my mind.
Leader: Einion Logos
Religion: Empyrean (founders)
Civics: Republic, Pacifism, Guilds, Foreign Trade, Overcouncil
While Ethne is a perfect fit for a cultural victory, Einion has that level of synergy with an Altar victory. Having multiple unique religion-based units (Devout and Monk) not tied to any of the major religions in the game makes the Altar (also not tied to any major religion) seem to fit better here than anywhere else, other than the Grigori. Pacifism is his favorite civic and gives a GP boost that ties in well with the Altar, but everything else stays the same.
Leader: Varn Gosam
Religion: Empyrean
Civics: Theocracy, Religion, Apprenticeship, Agrarianism, Overcouncil
I view the Malakim as kind of a Bannor Lite as far as their relationship to their religion goes. So much of their lore revolves around light and the sun that it's only natural to me that the Empyrean plays a major role to them. I know that gameplay-wise, Theocracy and Religion don't mesh well (with Theocracy limiting the potential happiness bonus from having multiple religions in a city), but lore-wise it's the cultural civic that seems to fit the best. Despite this, I still view the Elohim as better "founders" since they seem to align more with the values portion of the religion and not just the sun worship. Apprenticeship and Agrarianism just fit the "desert people" feel.
Leader: Dain the Caswallan
Religion: Fellowship Of Leaves
Civics: Aristocracy, Scholarship, Guilds, Agrarianism, None
Like the lore says, the Amurites are concerned with arcane knowledge and not much else. Aristocracy is listed as Dain the Caswallan's favorite, but I'm not really sure why. None of them seem to fit well, which means I'd normally default to Republic there. Scholarship is obvious. Caste System fits best in-game because of the research bonus, but the mage guilds makes Guilds a clear choice for me. Apprenticeship would be my first alternative. Agrarianism is my go-to choice for "civilization that doesn't seem overly concerned with the economy". Similarly, Fellowship of Leaves seems like the perfect "not really into religion" religion, since it's the only one that doesn't change alignment no matter what. Sometimes I could see Empyrean and Overcouncil for a "horrified by another breaking of the Compact" feel, and Ashen Veil for a "seduced by the promise of unseen knowledge" feel.
Leader: Cardith Lorda
Religion: The Order
Civics: God King, Liberty, Caste System, Foreign Trade, Overcouncil
The lore is very clear that the Kuriotates have a very rigid, centralized power structure in which everything serves the aim of the royal administration. The Order is a natural fit, since this civ is unequivocally good but also desiring a rigid structure. God King is a great fit for this both in lore and gameplay, one of the rare instances it's any good beyond early game. If Liberty wasn't listed as the favorite civic, I would have chosen Social Order. Caste System seems natural for a society where everything has a place and everything serves one aim. Foreign Trade comes from the willingness to take in new people.
Leader: Sandalphon
Religion: Council Of Esus (founders)
Civics: City States, Scholarship, Caste System, Mercantilism, None
The Sidar are an interesting case that took me a while to get a feel for. They're extremely distrustful of the outside world and become shadows to it, making Esus an easy, natural fit. Since it doesn't have any of the pomp or circumstance of the other religions, I have no trouble picturing it coming from Sidar lands. City States is the go-to government civic for any "don't seem to have a strong attachment to each other" people. Scholarship is obvious, with Sandalphon's lore mentioning that the endless pursuit of knowledge is the best perk of immortality for him. I'm really glad Caste System is listed as his favorite civic because otherwise I have no idea what I'd pick for labor. Mercantilism is another clear choice because of the Sidar rarely venturing out into the world beyond their borders. This is the same reason why I don't have them on the Undercouncil, despite founding CoE.
Leader: Os-Gabella
Religion: Ashen Veil (founders)
Civics: Despotism, Sacrifice The Weak, Slavery, Conquest, Undercouncil
This is evil in civic form to me. Ruling with an iron fist, dragging more and more of the world into hell. Although it's a departure from how I usually play the Sheaim, it lines up with the lore. Religion was such an easy choice that it really wasn't one at all. What other faith would the Sheaim ever follow but the Veil? Undercouncil is for evil scheming, and nobody does evil scheming quite like her.
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