Corrado rates the Civs.

Corrado

Ave imperator, puella!
Joined
Nov 8, 2001
Messages
271
Yeah, yeah, arrogant as all get-out for me to pop up (what, fourth post?) and put my name on a ranking system. But I'm doing it.

I'm rating each Civ on three categories- the two advantages, and the Unique Unit. Each category is rated one through five, with five being best and one being worst.

First, the advantages:

Scientific- 5 points. Three free techs during the course of the game; that's more than the Theory of Evolution. Very nice. Now, add in cutting in half the costs of *three* buildings, two of which produce a bonanza of culture. Keep your population happy through luxuries and growth control, and a library may be all you need for the first 4000 years.

Religious: 4 points. It'll save you about eight turns in revolution, assuming you do the Despot-M/R-C/D path. More if you switch governments like popping candy, but what non-Religious civ *does*? You only get bonuses on two buildings in this one, but Temples and Cathedrals tend to be must-haves, especially if you don't get many luxury resources.

Industrious/Commerical: 3 points each. Extra shields, extra commerce. Nice. Not *great*, but nice. And it doesn't kick in for a while.

Expansionist: 2 points. Early mapping and nice goody huts *are* nice, but past 1 AD there are no gains (unless it's a huge map with one other civ or something).

Militaristic: 1 point. Half-cost barracks and walls. Except walls don't matter past size 6. And get the Art of War, and free barracks means half-cost is useless. Yeah, you get faster promotions and- theoretically- more leaders. But that's all luck, anyways. Besides, don't go to war, don't get GLs even if you're militaristic; go to lots of wars, get GLs even if you aren't.


Okay. Now, each UU.

America's F-16: 3 points. Great! Your air defenses are better! Hopefully, with the patch that'll mean something. Not a bad unit, but not getting to your UU until real late in the game is a bit of a disappointment. If you don't get a Golden Age through Wonders, you might not get one at all.

Aztec's Jaguar Warriors: 2 points. A fast warrior. Okay, it's good for exploring early on. And if you run into a Civ that hasn't learned Bronze Working, you might be able to rush them. Of course, then you get your Golden Age in 2750 BC, which is pretty damned pathetic. At least they upgrade to Swordsmen.

Babylon's Bowmen: 1 point. It's an archer that defends like a spearman. Big freakin' whoop. It's not powerful enough to really do well against spearmen- the mainstay defender of the era- and you don't want to build them for defense because they upgrade to Longbowmen, not Pikemen. Bleh.

China's Riders: 4 points. A knight with better movement, meaning real rapid runs over your enemy. Very nice, though it still can only attack once a turn.

Egypt's War Chariots: 2 points. Cheap horsemen, nothing more. And since they're equal in attack to spearmen's defense, you'll lose as many chariots as you kill in defenders. Bleh.

England's Man-O-War: 1 point. A fleet, quickly made useless and obsolete. Can't upgrade to it, can't upgrade from it, can only build one and then move on. Why bother?

France's Musketmen: 2 points. An extra attack, making them as good as Swordsmen on the attack. Except that, by that point, you *should* have Knights, which have a better attack value and *should* be your mainstay of attack. In addition, you can't upgrade Spearmen or Pikemen to Musketmen, so you're stuck with some old defenders until you get to Riflemen. Yuck.

Germany's Panzers: 5 points. The extra move is incredible. This unit can atcually attack more than once in a single turn, meaning a rain of death to enemies. And it'll upgrade to Modern Armor when you're ready for it! Only the fact that it doesn't show up till late in the game is a real strike against it.

Greece's Hoplite: 4 points. The best defender of the Ancient era, and available from the get-go. And they upgrade to Musketeers. The only lack is a complete inability to attack, but when you've got the best defenders, you don't need the best attackers.

India's War Elephants: 3 points. It's a Knight, but it doesn't need resources. Not bad if you need to conquer to get Iron. But Iron isn't *that* uncommon, and if you don't have Iron by the time Railroads show up, you're SOL anyways. But still, it's a Knight, and you don't need to be connected to the Capital to build it.

Iriquois' Horsemen: 5 points. The best fast unit in the Ancient era. 3 points of attack is great against Pikemen; only the Greek Hoplite is a real threat. And unless your opponent has chariots or Horsemen to reply with, you can retreat from counter-attacks. *And*, they upgrade to Knights. Great unit.

Japan's Samurai: 5 points. Moves fast. Best defense until Gunpowder. As good offensively as a Knight. Doesn't require Horses. Great unit.

Persia's Immortals: 5 points. *The* best attack unit of the Ancient Era. And as good at defending as a spearman. Only a lack of speed is a weakness, and at this point there aren't many fast units anyways. The real downside is that you can't upgrade them to anything... but they don't really become useless until the Modern Era, so why worry that much?

Rome's Legions: 3 points. It's a standard swordman, except the extra point of defense allows you to stand the counter-attack much better. Heck, they're half-decent as defenders and attackers until you enter the Modern Era.

Russia's Cossacks: 2 points. Extra defense on a unit designed for attack? See France's Musketmen for why that's stupid. And even the extra defense doesn't do *much* good- by that point, you've better defenders out there. Worst of all, you can't upgrade *to* them, so you only see them if you build them.

Zulu's Impi: 2 points. Fast spearmen. Whose brilliant idea was *that*? They can't attack worth crap, and if you're defending a city, being able to retreat is useless. At least they upgrade to Pikemen.


Final rankings:

Romans: 7
Greeks: 12
Germans: 11
Chinese: 8
Japanese: 10
Indians: 10
Aztecs: 7
Iroquois: 11
Egyptians: 9
Babylonians: 10
Russians: 9
Americans: 8
French: 8
Persians: 13
Zulus: 4
English: 6


Your comments are always appreciated.
 
While i pretty much agree with each of your individual points, you have some flaws.

First, your point ratings are arbitrary. That said, I will ignore that point and continue.

Second, your examination of the Civ attributes is flawed. I have to disagree with giving each attribute a separate point value. Certain combinations (IMO) are inherently more powerful than others, regardless of the individual attribute.

Example:

France, Industrious/Commercial
While you give these two attributes the "average" score of the bunch, together they are incredibly incredibly powerful. Sure, Musketeer UU is not the best in the game (by far) but its not really relevant. French empires build EVERY unit and building faster -- extra shields. Played right, they never go broke and always have tons of gold in reserve for fast buying of buildings/troops -- extra commerce. In combination, the I/C pairing is far more powerful than the sum of its parts.

Zulu, Expansionist/Militaristic
You must hate these guys eh? Think about how to apply their whole civ attributes and UU. Fast moving spearmen, expan/milit...what does this mean? It means that they can defend a faaaaar greater area right off the bat in Ancient times. They get faaar more benefit from goody huts. They get GL's in ancient times- how often do you fight armies in ancient times? Think of that advantage. Played to focus on their strengths, the Zulu can take over any continent before 1AD, when you say the expan advantage runs out. The Zulu are far more powerful than you give them credit for, IMO.

Some things to ponder, friend. :)
 
You really like some of the worst units in the game 8)

Rome Legion = bad, a good early defender and nothing more?
Immortals = bad, can't retreat when losing means you lose units; can't upgrade means they become completely useless other than as a garrison
F16 = bad, game is defined by then and are they better bombers than a bomber? (possibly not bad after patch fix, but previously was horrible)
Musketeer = bad, if you attack with Musketeers you are going to lose a lot of units compared to attacking with horsemen.
English Man of War = bad, no upgrades? and no use on many maps
Babylonian Bowman = bad, not good on attack and no better on defense than a spearman

The rest all have an upside but aren't great

Jaguar Warriors = amazing, cheap to get an early rush in and movement to get to your enemy faster. They crush all early defenders except for hoplites
Iroquios Mounted Warrior = amazing, a little extra oomph than the best ancient attacker the horseman
German Panzer = amazing, a tank that can move as much as cavalry but attack more 8)
Chinese Rider = amazing, mobility is the most important stat before railroads and they have it


Eliezar
 
Alright, take a look at this:

"Immortals = bad, can't retreat when losing means you lose units; can't upgrade means they become completely useless other than as a garrison "

Whether or not they are useless later in the game is irrelevant, with Immortals it is easy to take over the world before they become obsolete. You've obviously never used them.
 
Horsemen are better than immortals. Take 10 horsemen and 10 immortals and see which can take over 5 cities defended by spearmen FASTER and with LESS losses. I HAVE used immortals as has a close friend of mine who plays and both of us have found conquest victories on deity MUCH harder with immortals than with horsemen do to the fact that it takes too long to get them to where they need to be and you don't keep 95 percent of your units so your army just doesn't get bigger and bigger, unlike horsemen where you rarely ever lose one.

And as far as upgrading not mattering...I've never once won a game before knights, musketeers, et all are around. Maybe in chieftain tiny world that is possible, but playing on computer generated emporer and deity maps your immortals will become obsolete. What this means is that suddenly your great immortals become useless and you have to fully replace all of them while someone using horsemen can upgrade to knights and then to cavalry and have a much longer string of conquest off the same units.

I have 4 victories on deity using the horseman -> knight -> cavalry method of conquest on differing maps. If immortals are so good why is it that two of us that can defeat the deity level comp cannot do it with the persians? Its because 1 movement offensive units are terrible, period.

Eliezar
 
A lot of wonders become obsolete. Does that mean you just dont build them?

Seriously, immortals have thier place as a damn fine unit, IMO. Ive found them to be far more successful in my games than horsemen.
 
The effort you put forward is appreciated but IMHO flawed. Any Civ can be the best, it all depends on the player.

If you are a city builder who waits until midway through the game then Zulu and Aztec obviously suck to you.

If you are an early game rusher then American Japan probably suck to you.
 
Militaristic not only gives half cost walls & barracks but also harbours & airports which are vital in any game, be it a conquest, culture or diplomatic approach... :rolleyes: Hence a miserly 1 for militaristic isn't ok IMO.
 
I still stand by my stance that you can't break them down like corrado did -- some combos are worth more than the sum of their parts.

the human body is worth 80cents (more if your water is evian) -- but i think a human is worth more than that.
 
I disagree with your ratings:

Religious, Industrious: 5 points these two are the best because
they are always usefull. Industrious workers are incredible so are
cheaps religious building and 1 turn anarchy compared to 5-10
without religious.

Comerical,Expansionist: 3 points. Both are nice but comercial is
useless early in the game and expansionist is useless late in the
game.
Scientific, Militaristic: 1 point.Scientific always gives me obsolete
techs I could trade cheap anyway. Cheaper scientific builds are ok
but getting them fast is only usefull if you plan a culture victory.
Militaristic - I haven't noticed any differece between militaristic and
non militaristic civs when it comes to leaders and elite units. Cheaper
military buildings are only usefull you plan a very early rush.

Unique Units:

Mounted Warrior, Rider, Panzer: 5 points

Speed ist the most impertant factor if you want to win a war quickly.

Jaguar Warrior, Samurai, Impi: 4 points

Jaguar Warrior are fast and cheap. They are extremly powerfull on tiny
maps where you are able to cripple you enemy super fast. Impi make
nice escorts for horsemen and a speed 2 defense 2 units will be very
effective in destroying your opponents infrastructure. Samurai are
excellent alround units with 4/4/2.

Immortals,Legion,hoplite: 3 points
Immortal have a nice attack score but they have a speed of 1 and
can't be upgraded. Legions are like samurai a good allround unit.
Hoplite & Legion will be the only defense 3 units for quite some time.


Corsack,Charriot,Bowman, War Elephant 2 points
ok units extra defense for an offensive unit isn't that usefull and
charriots are cheaper than hosemen. War Elephants don't need
resources but I nearly always have iron and horses when I can
build them.

Musketeer, : 1 point
Extra attack for a defensive unit is bad. Might be usefull against
defense 1 units like longbowmen.
F-15, Man o War: 0 points
totally useless units. The F-15 apears to late and the man o war is
obsolete pretty fast.
 
The Babalonians are my favorite civ yet that i play with. Curtural civs gain cheaper culture/happy improvments.

The bowman is much better than a rating of 2. It is a combo archer/phlanix at half the sheild's and half of the upkeep. seriously build an army of 20 or so and surround an enemy city and pillage and starve it. Reapeat this process is a cheap way of overwelming smaller civs.
 
Religious is the best. It really changes your options in the game. Drawn into war by the AI you can change to Communism. Tired of Monarchy because you want more cash? Switch to Republic. Cheap temples make Deity dwellers a bit happier and the culture growth closes your territory for enemy settlers. I admit that I play a more combined game. The AI cheats with the Anarchy periods and thus doesn't benefit from the religious abilities.

Indian War Elephants are possibly detrimental for your game because they prevent your Horsemen from upgrading. You don't build horsemen? OK but they still aren't any better than regular Knights then. When starting a game I hope that I will have horse and iron until Chivalry. A score of -1 seems a appropriate.
Same problem with the Cossack. The Cossack is at least stronger than Cavalry. Should be 1 point.

When judging the civs you also have to see the free techs they get. Aztecs will provide you Monarchy early and you can get the Hanging Gardens.

Commercial is most likely better than industrious. Just build a second worker when Commercial and you compensate. And corruption is an issue on higher levels. Already your 6th city or so will have >50% corruption without Forbidden Palace. Commercial will provide you extra commerce and shields(?) already before the medieval era.

And Militaristic only one point????:confused: You havent's played the game yet.
 
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