Corruption questions

[Mao Zendog]

The following questions are for the compleat version of Civ, with PTW and Conquest

I heard that there is somthing called an optimal city limit for a map. Standard maps can only hold 14 or so citys per nation before the citys become rediculusly corrupt, small maps can only hold 12 citys per nation, and so on...

-Now does going beyond your optimal city limit increase corruption amoung ALL your citys, or just the ones founded/captured after you reach the limit?
-Do citys that are NOT connected to your capital count towards your optimal city limit, or do they all contribute?
-If citys connected to your capital experience %15 or so less corruption, does connectiog an overwelming number of citys to your capital reduce that corruption bonus, or can you connect all of your citys to your capital safley withough having to worry about your little worthless citys adding corruption to your big core citys? (wich is realy all i want to know)

-Do court houses have any effect on your optimal city limit? or do they just reduce corruption based on distance from the capital?
-Does the forbidden palace have any effect on your optimal city limit? or are they just like big courhouses?
-Are police stations any different from court houses, besides the war wearryness "lowering powers" i suppose i will call them.


Although i would realy appreciate it if someone can just answer my questions, any links to places were i could find ALL the answers would be nice too. But I am asking these questions because i cannot seem to find them all in one place, and giving me a link to some guide with half or so of the answers would nullify the point of asking these questions.
thanks!

 

[gmaharriet]

-Now does going beyond your optimal city limit increase corruption amoung ALL your citys, or just the ones founded/captured after you reach the limit?

The ones founded/captured after and corruption increases primarily with distance.

-Do citys that are NOT connected to your capital count towards your optimal city limit, or do they all contribute?

All

-If citys connected to your capital experience %15 or so less corruption, does connectiog an overwelming number of citys to your capital reduce that corruption bonus, or can you connect all of your citys to your capital safley withough having to worry about your little worthless citys adding corruption to your big core citys? (wich is realy all i want to know)

Connection (or lack thereof) doesn't increase/decrease the corruption in your core cities, but the unconnected ones suffer from not having access to resources...i.e., you can't build a swordsman in an unconnected city because you won't have access to the iron connected to your capital city, and you won't have the happiness benefit of luxes.)

The only time that having lots of high corruption towns/cities affects your core is if you are in the government of Communism, which has communal corruption.

-Do court houses have any effect on your optimal city limit? or do they just reduce corruption based on distance from the capital?

No effect on OCN.

-Does the forbidden palace have any effect on your optimal city limit? or are they just like big courhouses?

The FP increases your OCN.

-Are police stations any different from court houses, besides the war wearryness "lowering powers" i suppose i will call them.

Dunno, because I never build them. Someone else will be able to answer this for you.

One additional comment on courthouses...they reduce corruption (gold loss), but they have no effect on waste (shield loss).

 

[Mao Zendog]

thank you veary much! that was quite helpfull,
But i would still like it if someone could tell me how a police station effects corruption.

And do belive that citys connected to your palace get reduced corruption, if someone could verify that, it would be great.

 

[RFHolloway]

Yes connecting the city reduces corruption in that city. It has no effect on the corruption in other cities.

police stations affect corruption the same way as court houses IIRC.

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=76619 is the link to the answer to all possible corruption questions

 

[MAS]

-Now does going beyond your optimal city limit increase corruption amoung ALL your citys, or just the ones founded/captured after you reach the limit?

Rank is the key factor here, if you found a new city between your capital and an existing city, the corruption level in the existing city will increase, because it now has a higher rank than the city closer to your capital.
This even works if the newer city is not literally between them but at the other side of your capital, yet still less tiles away than your existing city.

-Do citys that are NOT connected to your capital count towards your optimal city limit, or do they all contribute?

ALL

-If citys connected to your capital experience %15 or so less corruption, does connectiog an overwelming number of citys to your capital reduce that corruption bonus, or can you connect all of your citys to your capital safley withough having to worry about your little worthless citys adding corruption to your big core citys? (wich is realy all i want to know)

Only worry about this when using the communist government. (and that should be never)
Every new city adds to your empire, no matter how corrupt. Just don't waste resources on improving the 90% corrupt cities.

-Do court houses have any effect on your optimal city limit? or do they just reduce corruption based on distance from the capital?

distance.

-Does the forbidden palace have any effect on your optimal city limit? or are they just like big courhouses?

It doubles the OCN. 8 becomes 16 on standard maps, 16 becomes 32 on huge maps.

-Are police stations any different from court houses, besides the war wearryness "lowering powers" i suppose i will call them.

Dunno, because I never build them. Someone else will be able to answer this for you.

One additional comment on courthouses...they reduce corruption (gold loss), but they have no effect on waste (shield loss).

gmaharriet had it almost correct, but not quite...

The courthouse effects both corruption (red coins) and waste (red shields) The police station only effects corruption (red coins)

In addition, putting a city in the "we love the [insert leader title] day" will reduce waste (red shields) as if you have a 2th courthouse, but not corruption. (red coins)

 

[eldar]

A couple of corrections...

Rank is the key factor here, if you found a new city between your capital and an existing city, the corruption level in the existing city will increase, because it now has a higher rank than the city closer to your capital.

This was the case in Vanilla/PtW, but no longer in C3C. A city's rank in C3C is determined by an internal counter - the older a city, the lower its rank. The counter is used to allow for a tie-breaker between cities founded on the same turn.

This is why an enemy's capital can have relatively little corruption, even if its a long way from your own capital: it will have a very low rank.

I've seen quite a dramatic example of this recently (amplified by the Commercial trait of the Civ I was playing as, Korea: C3C, Emp, Standard map, 7 rivals).

The nearest source of Horses and Iron were both about 15-20 tiles away from my capital. So I sent a settler there to claim them, followed by a road crew to get it connected up quickly. The city founded there, because of distance, was quite corrupt, but it was only my 4th or 5th city so had relatively low Rank corruption.

Later, when I'd populated the area around it with a few more cities, including a couple captured from an enemy, I got a Great Leader. Rather then build an Army, I used the GL to rush my FP in a city only 4 tiles from the Horse-and-Iron city. As the FP now acts as a new centre for distance corruption, and my Horse-and-Iron city had a low rank, it went to <20&#37; corruption/waste - in a city nearly 20 tiles from my capital, without a Courthouse!

The police station only effects corruption (red coins)

No, the Police Station does affect both. Both reduce the corruption & waste caps by 10%. In C3C this cap is normally 90%, so with both buildings the max is 70%. This makes building both late on with Civil Engineers probably worthwhile. Combine both with the FP, which reduces the corruption cap of its city to 20%, and the FP city will have 0% corruption/waste.

 

[MAS]

This was the case in Vanilla/PtW, but no longer in C3C. A city's rank in C3C is determined by an internal counter - the older a city, the lower its rank. The counter is used to allow for a tie-breaker between cities founded on the same turn.

From my understanding, rank is determined by distance from the capital, the difference with vanilla/PTW is that the city founding date is used as tie breaker. So no more ring city placement.

This is why an enemy's capital can have relatively little corruption, even if its a long way from your own capital: it will have a very low rank.

I've never noticed such a thing.

I've seen quite a dramatic example of this recently --snip-- it went to <20% corruption/waste - in a city nearly 20 tiles from my capital, without a Courthouse!

Do you have a safe of that? I'd like to see it. (not that I don't believe you)

No, the Police Station does affect both. Both reduce the corruption & waste caps by 10%. In C3C this cap is normally 90%, so with both buildings the max is 70%. This makes building both late on with Civil Engineers probably worthwhile. Combine both with the FP, which reduces the corruption cap of its city to 20%, and the FP city will have 0% corruption/waste.

Outside of the caps, what about the % of existing corruption and waste? (I didn't consider the caps, I never build courts or police stations in cities that are corrupt enough to notice the effect of the raised cap.)

 

[eldar]

From my understanding, rank is determined by distance from the capital, the difference with vanilla/PTW is that the city founding date is used as tie breaker. So no more ring city placement.

Okay, I think you're correct here, now that I think about it. I'm not going to trawl through Alexman's article just to check.

Do you have a safe of that? I'd like to see it. (not that I don't believe you)

Yes, but at home If I remember, I'll post it (possibly "pre-FP" and "post-FP" saves as well...).

 

[eldar]

Here ya go. 350AD, the turn before Taejon gets the FP, Cheju (5 tiles NW of Taejon, 19.5 distant from Seoul using the normal method of counting), is around 60% corrupt: bringing in 5 shields, losing 3.

440AD, and it's just over 20% corrupt (3/14 gold is lost), and still doesn't have its Courthouse.

The power of the Commercial Trait and the FP

 

[WackenOpenAir]

One more thing, don't look at OCN as a number that has any direct importance for you. The number means little in itself. An OCN of 12 does not mean that your 13th city is gonna be very significantly different from the 12th. Of course it will be more corrupt than the 12th, just like the 12th is more corrupt than the 11th etc, but it is not like you should put a border there and act much differently with the cities beyond OCN.

It is a variable used in corruption formulas. It is used at different places in the formula. The higher the number, the better.
I don't think it doubles with the FP. As far as i know, the FP increases it by 2. The exact numbers as i said are not so important unless you search for the formulas so that you can exactly calculate the corruption of cities that you are gonna build in the future.

Just remember that cities close to the palace will never be disadvantaged by more cities further away, even if it's 300 of them unless you are in communism.

 

[MAS]

Here ya go. 350AD, the turn before Taejon gets the FP, Cheju (5 tiles NW of Taejon, 19.5 distant from Seoul using the normal method of counting), is around 60&#37; corrupt: bringing in 5 shields, losing 3.

440AD, and it's just over 20% corrupt (3/14 gold is lost), and still doesn't have its Courthouse.

The power of the Commercial Trait and the FP

I looked at your saves, and I noticed the FP has a very positive effect on all of your cities. The iron and horse city has in both saves, almost the same level of corruption as the size 2 city with the gold resource a bit to the north.

You must also not forget that the commerce mentioned in the city view is including the result from the library and marketplace, as well as gold, beakers and happiness from specialists and wealth production. While the corrupted commerce is only a % of the base commerce. To know what the base commerce is, you must count the coins generated by the citizens manually.
(Its a part of the GUI, I feel they should have given more thought)

 

[Mao Zendog]

Wow, this is all realy helpfull.

So, if i understand correctly, you can found little citys, and keep your opponent's worthless citys, withought having to worry TOO much about your core citys becoming corrupted.
Or do i still have it wrong?

 

[gmaharriet]

Wow, this is all realy helpfull.

So, if i understand correctly, you can found little citys, and keep your opponent's worthless citys, withought having to worry TOO much about your core citys becoming corrupted.
Or do i still have it wrong?

Your own more distant cities have no effect at all. Your opponents' cities would only have an effect if they are closer to your capital than some of your own cities...in effect, they now ARE yours.

 

[Mao Zendog]

i understand now.

eldar, may i ask why you are building so many librarys in your game as the Koreans? Does building multiple librarys early on realy help your science rate?

 

[eldar]

eldar, may i ask why you are building so many librarys in your game as the Koreans? Does building multiple librarys early on realy help your science rate?

Border expansion. They're cheaper than Temples (40s for a Scientific Civ vs 60). And those in the vicinity of the FP will actually become useful. But mainly border expansion.

 

[MAS]

i understand now.

eldar, may i ask why you are building so many librarys in your game as the Koreans? Does building multiple librarys early on realy help your science rate?

The best way to increase science early on is to get more cities, and more pop in those cities.

libraries aren't useful in size 2 cities, except if you badly want some culture. (as eldar stated, he did it for the culture!)
As a rule of thumb, a library is good if the city is producing at least 10 base science. This depends on your slider settings of course.
The Lib will then add 5 commerce worth of science, and cost 1 commerce worth of gpt upkeep, so that leaves 4 commerce extra, 1 more than a scientist specialist would give you.

 

[Pyrrhos]

gmaharriet had it almost correct, but not quite...

The courthouse effects both corruption (red coins) and waste (red shields) The police station only effects corruption (red coins)

Erm...

I've got complete and police station most definitely limits waste of shields once you get past the first ring of cities. I just checked by loading a save and selling the Police Station off -> +1 shield second ring, +2 shields third ring.

Far, far away, on a distant continent where no matter how many shields are produced, only one benefits the empire the courthouse will make it two and police station three. Usually!