Dealing with Gilden Silveric in MP

lightsbobo

Chieftain
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Aug 18, 2007
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In our inhouse MP games we have had a trend of Ljosalfar dominating the game by cranking out an early Gilden (turn ~80). This early, he appears to be almost unstoppable--even moreso when he can get a quick Orthus kill--as most units at this stage don't even damage him when he has taken the Drill line. We are by no means expert players, but we haven't been able to find a reasonable counter to this super hero that is able to siege even a well-defended base at turn 100, without getting a scratch to show for it. Has anyone had any success at stopping elves that go this route?
 
This is one problem with the combat system as it is now (in all of Civ4): stronger units have a very good chance of taking no damage at all. Maybe you'll want to take a look at Smarter Orcs, where we've also implemented a somewhat different combat mechanic (although you do have to fiddle with the xml a little to enable that mechanic). In short, at this stage of the game, ANY unit will hurt Gilden, even if just a little bit. This way you can wear him down efficiently. Of course you need a LOT of units.
 
just get a bunch of units with Cover2, a nice mix of axemen and horsemen with such easily deal with Gilden. Also, if you have a decent tech rate, go for assassins, they will always deal some damage, since they have 1 first strike and immune to enemy first strikes (taking away Gildens biggest advantage against swarms).

you can also beat gilden just by playing defensively, trying to get him alone, and wait for him to attack and take damage, then finish him off.
 
A mix of axeman and horseman doesn't really work in theory (or in practice).

Gilden requires 600 flasks of research (Archery + Hunting), then 120 hammers of production to produce.

Axemen require 725 flasks of research (Crafting + Mining + Bronze Working), then 100 hammers of production for a training yard before you can even start producing one. Not to mention, if you plan on them having 4 strength you'd need to pump out a worker and hope you get lucky with copper.

Horsemen require 625 flasks of research (Agriculture + AH + Horseback Riding), then 100 hammers of production for a stables. And of course the horse resource, which may not even be available in the first place.

So both of these units alone require more work than is required to get Gilden, you need to get lucky with resources (copper + horses), and they come out untrained. Gilden on the other hand will acquire many levels as he walks over to an enemies base. At best, I think you can go down either the axemen or horseman route (having both is just not feasible before 100 turns). In practice, I've never had problems dealing with untrained, low strength stacks of units like axemen and horsemen with Gilden.

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Two things (to get you started):
1. Remember there is strength in numbers, take full advantage of that.
2. Develop an economy capable of upgrading a lot of warriors, wait until Gilden is committed--and hopefully overextended--then surprise him with an instant uber-upgrade.
 
Two things (to get you started):
1. Remember there is strength in numbers, take full advantage of that.
2. Develop an economy capable of upgrading a lot of warriors, wait until Gilden is committed--and hopefully overextended--then surprise him with an instant uber-upgrade.

ya, never had any trouble killing gilden when a player goes around with him.. don't see what the fuss is. theres too many easy ways to kill him.
 
the computer has evel less luck with heros, i wiped out five civilisations with Gilden+axe+mobility promo(ie blitz), a healer, and a conjurer casting vines for a little extra defence.

their army just fueled rapid leveling(allong with raider promo), when he wes lfully leveled i was attacking +60% cities with garison archers, and Gilden wasn't taking a sctatch

are heros overpowered? because the AI doesn't have a clue how to take one down. so you just need to keep your civ alive till you get a powerful hero, then that one unit can single handidly take down an entire army.
 
Hmm...Maybe heroes need to be re-worked so that they are interdependent with an offensive stack, like this:

All units could have a "Join Hero" function like AoI's join phalanx for pikemen. The hero gets + 1 strength, and the joined units promotions will be added to the hero in a special, re-calculated way so that they only provide a percentage of + 1 strenght.

So, in a large war, heroes can lead an army, or participate in one, and in doing so they prevent the army from taking permanent unit losses without a full defeat.

Did I mention that heroes would also have to be significantly weaker? Also, a base amount of joined units should be surpassed before the hero get ANY benefit.

This system might make for effective hero gameplay.
 
Warrior spam, join to hero, enjoy your strength 500 hero.
Ouch...
While I think this is a nice idea it would need some serius limits to prevent above mentioned abuse.
 
The problem with gilden is 2-fold.

1. He is the fastest hero to rush to. This means there aren't a lot of options for different solutions in beating him. Even if you include the units a mere step up from warriors, the research costs are equal or greater, some of them (horsemen) require special resources, all need special buildings, and you require a number of units to do the job. Gilden can also quickfarm Orthas, granting a devastating +1, and is relatively safe in the high defense areas of cities and forests if you need to retreat with him.

2. Since he has first strikes, it makes the mass units approach even less appealing, as it's possible to go through multiple battles without even taking damage. This also just feeds his experience growth, and frequent levels help rapid healing and further the strength gap between him and his theoretical counters.

Even if some viable counter strategy is developed, it almost certainly requires a focused tech and building route, and might rely on specific racial/civ counters. Thus Ljosalfar basically are just teching as is natural to them, getting a great hero along the way, but in order to defend, other civs must break whatever early game strategies they might have had in order to focus down this one threat.

This hero would be easy to fix. One could lower his offensive strength, perhaps boosting his defensive strength at the same time. Thus you could be free to harass, pillage, rapid expand, or just turtle, but you wouldn't have to worry as much about your city being taken single-handedly. A similar effect might be achieved by a medium sized negative to city attack.

The other fix might be to make him take longer to come out, so that there are more potential solutions for him. Ether make him available with bowyers, require much more to produce him, or at the very least make him require an archery range.
 
sadly i cant agree with you at all.

what you are seeing is expected and part of the balancing between the civs. some civs are early powerhouses ,some come to their strength later. Most of the civs get a hero that has a strength based on when you get them.

example of other civs in similar sitchuations,

clan of embers - rantine comes with bronze working and is a mellee unit. as such typicaly by the time he has combat 5 and a few specifics you can have warfare researched and start giving him city attack. iirc you can get him before you can get gilden.

grigori - by the time you can get gilden you can have both brandig and melusine. you can make both of these into archers if you choose and have twice the firepower your describing with gilden.

as for some non-hero counters,

dovelio - dovelio barbarian units do not require a forge to get the metal weapons, they only need access to the metal. this greatly speeds up what they can do against someone.

hippus - with the horselord promotion , the bonus toward archery , the immunity to first strikes. i have never seen the hippus having any fear of archers.

another solution to try if this is a problem is to use a larger map so that you dont get to your enemy as quickly.

basically nerfing something just because you have yet to find an effective way to beat it is not a good way to fix the problem. try playing the civ and look for its weaknesses.

gl and have fun
 
Bronze working tech requires (according to wiki):
Crafting (125) + Mining (200) + Bronze Working (400) = 725

Rantine (Hero) = 180 Hammers
3 Strength, Melee, Orcish, +25% to melee

Archery tech requires:
Exploration (125) + Hunting (300) + Archery (300) = 725

Gilden (hero) = 120 Hammers
5/6 Strength, Archer, Elven, Dexterous (+1 Str, making 6/6), 1 first strikes

So your counter to a 6/6 archery unit with first strike and double movement + increased defense in forests is a 3 str melee hero with some broken fire resist and which builds 50% slower than the unit it's supposed to counter.

Gilden can also solo Orthas, who is usually out about the same time. The +1 str goes even further to cripple the defensive options against Gilden.

Grigori requires same tech path in order to get archers, so 725 beakers.
Archer (Upgraded from Adventurer)
2/4, 1 first strike, 25% city defense, 25% hills defense bonus.

So unfortunately, units strengths are not directly multiplicative. In other words, 2 3 strength units are not as good, by a long shot, as 1 6 strength unit (7 if you farmed Orthas). The saving grace in this case is it's likely that, so long as the only thing attacking you is Gilden, your fortified adventurer archer in your city likely has enough of a defensive boost to stand off a low level Gilden. While I haven't tested the timings, it's my bet that out of the gate, Gilden couldn't win, but by reaching level 6/7 by farming animals and barbarians for a few turns the adventurers will be outpowered. Remember each combat upgrade is 20% of base 6, while for your adventurers, it's base 4. Also, your best case scenario in this case is defense. You're still not going to be able to kill Gilden like this.

Dovelio are going to require workers to make use of any metals, and there's no real guarantee they are going to have it under their starting city. Going workers this early leaves you extremely vulnerable to outproduction by higher population cities/expansions, and does nothing to defend against any kind of early game warrior rush. Most cases I've seen of early workers just degrade to the worker sitting in base while opponents are able to pillage unchallenged with superior armies, and perhaps even losing your main city by lack of sufficient defense.

Horseback riding is 125 + 200 + 300 = 626, 100 beakers less than archery. However, you need to build a stables (100 hammers) plus the cost for your horses (60 each), which puts you over the production but under the tech. At best, you gain a few turns on gilden, and have 1-2 horses out in time to defend against him. Horses don't get defense modifiers, so fortifying in base does nothing for your cause. You're still dealing with a number of weaker units to defeat a stronger one, and if gilden brings any sort of backup you're going to be really throwing units at him in order to win. I just don't see the cost-effectiveness of this defense. Not to mention, this is perhaps the most extreme example of a counter one can come up with. You are talking about the Civ that specializes in archery units against the civ that specializes in cavalry units. It should be horribly lopsided in favor of Hippus, but it really really isn't, it's actually quite close. That just sounds wrong to me, since there are so many civs that don't have these same sort of counters.

Larger maps don't always guarantee far starting positions, and is really just running away from the balance problem anyway, as it shouldn't be necessary to play 3 player FFA's on huge maps in case someone decides to go elves and Gilden rush.

There just doesn't seem to be a reasonable counter to mass producing warriors until archery, getting gilden, and then controlling the entire map from there. It takes entirely too long to get the next best unit or hero counter to Gilden.
 
ok, the practical differences with rantine and the grigori.

first rantine is a base 4 unit and does not require a forge or such as long as the copper is being mined. with copper weapons he is a 5. its rare that i dont have copper by the time he comes out due to rapid expansion caused by peace with the barbs. second if you even suspect going to war with the elves rantine will have cover 2 for an additional 80% boost.

for the grigori , i checked the pedia on this again also and the arcehrs are 3/5. again with cover 2 (gotten as a warrior before promotion) stopping gilden is not all that hard. keep in mind that brandig will have a 4-5 level advantage in gilden and if partnereed with melusine , the kill would be easy. if you spent teh same time and made brandig into a horseman it woulod be a laugh.

on to the topic of horsemen.
horsemen are a base str 4 unit, with a build in +40% vs archers. this gives them a 5+ str , 2-3 can easily handle him.
if your dwarven and pick up boar riders your looking at a base 5 str unit with +40% vs archers built in.

for a sure fire way , which i had forgoten about , is to use loki and just charm gilden every turn.

the brass tax is that the +1 boost that every single unit in the game got (except for fireball and meteor). greatly weakened all heros and HUGELY cut the divide that existed between tiers. the logi your using can be applied to practically every hero at the time you get them if you rush for them.

now if you want to talk about units that can ACTUALLY break a game ...
- grigori meteor throwing archmages
- hemah
- eater of dreams
- high priest of the veil
- magnadine
- losha valas

and i am suprised you have not broguht up rathas denmora , but this unit is only available if you can play as the dark elfs (and for some reason the AI weighting is off on this).

well , GL , and enjoy.
 
Rathus is not the dark elf hero, he is a shade. Only the Sidar can build him (and they aren't playable by default yet)
 
now if you want to talk about units that can ACTUALLY break a game ...
- grigori meteor throwing archmages
I wouldn't call those game breakers because they are so hard to obtain. But nobody has survived a game in which I have got them. ;)
well , GL , and enjoy.
I'm glad you joined the discussion. Thanks for the input.

Last night I typed out a lengthy defense of your original post, but never submitted it. I felt guilty at the thought of making someone read five paragraphs to just get: "the very early game attacker is usually at a numerical disadvantage when rushing experienced players, especially when using 1 movement melee units against a barb civ like Clan of Embers which doesnt need a substantial barbarian defense in every city.

I have played against humans who have used an early Gilden rush time and again to harrass the hell out of me. But his appearance NEVER spelled disaster.
 
You should never let length be a diversion for thorough discussion! I would have loved to read an in depth description about competitive earlygame. We've tried a number of variations on the early game, and I've clearly made a number of conclusions, but if there is some sort of revelation I've yet to discover then by no means be shy on explaining it. If you still have the paragraphs available, then by all means please post them.
 
Bronze working tech requires (according to wiki):
Crafting (125) + Mining (200) + Bronze Working (400) = 725

Rantine (Hero) = 180 Hammers
3 Strength, Melee, Orcish, +25% to melee

Archery tech requires:
Exploration (125) + Hunting (300) + Archery (300) = 725

Gilden (hero) = 120 Hammers
5/6 Strength, Archer, Elven, Dexterous (+1 Str, making 6/6), 1 first strikes

So your counter to a 6/6 archery unit with first strike and double movement + increased defense in forests is a 3 str melee hero with some broken fire resist and which builds 50% slower than the unit it's supposed to counter.

Gilden can also solo Orthas, who is usually out about the same time. The +1 str goes even further to cripple the defensive options against Gilden.

Grigori requires same tech path in order to get archers, so 725 beakers.
Archer (Upgraded from Adventurer)
2/4, 1 first strike, 25% city defense, 25% hills defense bonus.

So unfortunately, units strengths are not directly multiplicative. In other words, 2 3 strength units are not as good, by a long shot, as 1 6 strength unit (7 if you farmed Orthas). The saving grace in this case is it's likely that, so long as the only thing attacking you is Gilden, your fortified adventurer archer in your city likely has enough of a defensive boost to stand off a low level Gilden. While I haven't tested the timings, it's my bet that out of the gate, Gilden couldn't win, but by reaching level 6/7 by farming animals and barbarians for a few turns the adventurers will be outpowered. Remember each combat upgrade is 20% of base 6, while for your adventurers, it's base 4. Also, your best case scenario in this case is defense. You're still not going to be able to kill Gilden like this.

Dovelio are going to require workers to make use of any metals, and there's no real guarantee they are going to have it under their starting city. Going workers this early leaves you extremely vulnerable to outproduction by higher population cities/expansions, and does nothing to defend against any kind of early game warrior rush. Most cases I've seen of early workers just degrade to the worker sitting in base while opponents are able to pillage unchallenged with superior armies, and perhaps even losing your main city by lack of sufficient defense.

Horseback riding is 125 + 200 + 300 = 626, 100 beakers less than archery. However, you need to build a stables (100 hammers) plus the cost for your horses (60 each), which puts you over the production but under the tech. At best, you gain a few turns on gilden, and have 1-2 horses out in time to defend against him. Horses don't get defense modifiers, so fortifying in base does nothing for your cause. You're still dealing with a number of weaker units to defeat a stronger one, and if gilden brings any sort of backup you're going to be really throwing units at him in order to win. I just don't see the cost-effectiveness of this defense. Not to mention, this is perhaps the most extreme example of a counter one can come up with. You are talking about the Civ that specializes in archery units against the civ that specializes in cavalry units. It should be horribly lopsided in favor of Hippus, but it really really isn't, it's actually quite close. That just sounds wrong to me, since there are so many civs that don't have these same sort of counters.

Larger maps don't always guarantee far starting positions, and is really just running away from the balance problem anyway, as it shouldn't be necessary to play 3 player FFA's on huge maps in case someone decides to go elves and Gilden rush.

There just doesn't seem to be a reasonable counter to mass producing warriors until archery, getting gilden, and then controlling the entire map from there. It takes entirely too long to get the next best unit or hero counter to Gilden.

One doesn't need heroes to take out Gilden Sylveric.

By the time Gilden Sylveric comes out, one can have a few Horsemen in play to counter. Once Silveric becomes a formidable threat, one should have a small army of horsemen to weaken him and a few veterans (CoverII, Elf-Slaying, Combat) to finish him off.

A few things you seem to be ignoring:
1) A fresh Sylveric is not a threat. A fresh Sylveric will fall to Warriors with CoverII & Combat III.
2) A strong Sylveric takes quite a bit of time to develop, even farming animals/barbarians.
3) Sylveric is a weak city-raider: He will rely on ShockII early on and CoverI/Heroic StrengthII/DrillIV once more formidable defenders come into play.
4) While Orthus' Axe is as likely to be in Sylveric's hands as it is to be in the hands of the enemy (who can put it to good use on any unit built to slay Sylveric).
5) Kuriotates would have little to fear from Sylveric.

Quick replies:

- "Gilden couldn't win, but by reaching level 6/7 by farming animals and barbarians for a few turns the adventurers will be outpowered."

It takes a hell of a lot longer than a few turns, with the need to find targets and heal between attacks.

- "Remember each combat upgrade is 20% of base 6, while for your adventurers, it's base 4"

Thats why units build to kill will get CoverII and Elf-Slaying, completely negating Sylveric's strength Advantage.
 
A little off topic: This conversation piqued my interest in a civ I have tended to avoid. I'm just getting a good start on a single-player game immortal level, and my Gilden is fantastic!

After knocking out a brazillion under-seige Calabims, hes got Combat V and Drill V. I just added Treetop Defense to that impressive promotion list and he now gets...6-10 first strikes! Nice.

Don't forget to send a mage and Priest of Leaves with your rampaging uber-Gilden. :)
 
i think any hero played correctly can be super powerful in their time.

I'm having fun with govanon teaching raise skeleton to slaves. then each slave can raze a skeleton each turn. and you always have a many slaves created with OO. nice cannon fodder! keep them one step in front of your main force, the thing is that the enemy units can only attack once per turn, so replicable cannon fodder skeletons stop the ennemy from attacking your main units. only trouble with this is war weariness, but i often max out WW at 200% so it can't get any worse. and the best thing is the slaves don't cause any upkeep, so you only pay for upkeep for the skeletons you need at a moment in time, deleating them when not in use, as soon as a enemy approaches 50 skeletons appear out of nowhere.

anyway in i think most of the heroes can be massively powerful if played correctly.
 
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