Decisions, Decisions

[LowEndUserII]

First Monarch game, Americans, Large Islands, Monarchy, 700AD. Holding one Great Leader. I`m in the central position. Got the GL very early with a Great Science Leader, have Horses but no Iron. Cash slider set at 0, Science slider at 0. About $250 in Gold since I had to rush some units when the Zulus DOW in 450AD. Peace now. I`m not well liked as usual

So... do I make up a horse army plus archers and try to take out China up North, or cripple the Aztecs or Iroqouis down South. The Zulus are North West but have Ancient Horseman. A few Civs on another island I haven`t met. If the AI Civs gang up on me I`m toast here since it takes so long to built units.

I really don`t want to blow the first Monarch Game that looks like a possible win. Any opinions appreciated

 

[Spoonwood]

Develop your land, develop your land, develop your land. I guess you don't have iron. Trade for it. I'd suggest waiting a bit with that leader until you have Chivalry and building a knight army and then going out to whack everyone.

 

[Aabraxan]

The Aztecs & the Chinese have iron, but no extras. The Egyptians and Japanese have one extra each, but you can't currently buy it. You simply may not be able to trade for iron in this case, at least not for a long time.

All victory conditions are on, but I don't know what VC you want. If you want to expand militarily, I would say immediately build an army. In this case, I'd say a spear army. A horse army is faster, but the ones that I've tried never survived very long. Hide an attack force under the spear army and go whack the Chinese. Take down Shanghai and that should secure iron. Immediately swap some builds to swords. Take Canton if you can. Beijing will probably have to wait. Buy some allies if you can. At the very least they'll be slower to gang up on you.

Be warned, though, that your military advisor says you're weak compared to the Chinese. It may take a series of smaller wars to whittle them down to size.

Good luck!

 

[Tribute]

I count 15 towns and cities. Is that right? They're all in CXC or CXXC formation.

You have no iron, very few contacts, and only 1 lux. Oh dear...

Well, I suggest that you explore your west coast both north and southwise. The galley on your east coast doesn't seem like it will be very useful since the eastern sea seems to close off (although it might not), surrounded by the Chinese and Aztecs.

Whoever's down south of you doesn't seem very strong... since they're in tundra. You may as well take 3 of the nearest towns, so that your horsemen have some use. However, I would hold off on building more. Instead, I would make aqueducts and marketplaces. Washington should definitely stop making Sun Tzu's. (You don't have nearly enough cities to make building it worthwhile.) Make a marketplace instead.

Are your workers automated? If so, then you'll have little chance of winning this.
Try to irrigate the plains and mine your grassland. Unfortunately, because of your close spacing, you may not get much out of your land except a little bit of increased production, which should reduce the time it'd take to make units. You also need more workers, The two towns south of SFO seem to have high food production. Make workers there get the worker making towns to 5 or 7 food per turn.

You seem to have city governor on. I guess its fine, but if the human optimizes where his/her citizen's go, it'd be better...

Boston, New York, and New Bapedi should go for culture. You should just make a temple instead of a library, since you probably have happiness issues and are not researching yet. San Francisco should make a harbor, aqueduct, and then a temple. The first allows over coasts trade (to China mainly through Canton, since you don't have a road to them yet) and better food input to SFO. The next allows it to grow to city size, which signficantly helps you in both money and production. Detroit should make a building, anything would help, I think.

Buy iron from someone and make swordsmen (once you have feud, then med. inf.) Turn your leader into an army, and just leave him somewhere safe for later. I agree that a knight army would be useful.

Once you get Shanghai or Beijing, either seems like a good Forbidden Palace site.

There's just too much to suggest, so I'll stop here. While you may or may not win this game, the important thing is to learn from it.

 

[chrisman1]

A few people have suggested buying iron. I have only played a handful of games where I haven't had my own source of iron and in all of them the price of trading for iron was ridiculously expensive. I ended up just holding out on military building (as much as possible) until I could build musketmen.

What are your experiences with trading for iron? Have you been able to get it for reasonable trades?

 

[vmxa]

First they have to know IW and then have a spare source. Then you have to have a trade network with them. These are not always the case early in the game.

Then the best way is to trade a tech or a lux for it. They are correct to make it expensive. Trading Iron can hurt them.

 

[chrisman1]

First they have to know IW and then have a spare source. Then you have to have a trade network with them. These are not always the case early in the game.

Then the best way is to trade a tech or a lux for it. They are correct to make it expensive. Trading Iron can hurt them.

I understand what is required for them to be able to trade it. My point was the excorbitant (sp?) prices they were asking. Things like 3 techs plus 100+ gpt. In comparison, when I have traded excess iron, I would be overjoyed to get 50 gpt (and I can't remember ever getting that much).

So, my question still stands...have people been able to get iron for a reasonable price?

 

[rysingsun]

iron is always very expensive. for the price you could alternatively cash-rush enough horses to give you better value for your money than the buy-iron-to-build-swordsmen choice.

A general rule of thumb for me is: I do not build lots of structures unless i don't plan on going to war for a very long time. if you wait till you are about to declare before building units then you will never go to war at all, since you will never be ready. of course, they will eventually declare on you and then you will learn what it's like to get ready for war after the war has already started.

 

[Ringo Kid]

To add to what Aabraxan advised:I would suggest building a dozen catapults, making a spear army with your leader, and gathering all your horseman and archers into an attack force. Build a road right up to the Chinese city with the iron. Then move your army, catapults and attack force of horse and archers up to the iron city. Attack with the cats,horses and infantry (but not the spear army-save that for defense of the newly taken city) and take the city. Switch all your production to iron based units, I forget know if you have chivalry, but whatever has the strongest attack value. That way even if you lose the iron city to a counterattack, you will have at least some high attack value units to work with - because the citys can continue to build the iron based unit even if the iron resource gets disconnected. So if you have fifteen cities you will have at least fifteen strong units to attack with. ( Make sure you gather them together and attack en masse . )

The chinese will probably throw about a million swordsmen at you for a while, so keep your cats inside the iron city and reduce the enemy with catapult attacks and horse until they run out of swords, by which time your new iron units should be built and you can make a "stack of death" of your twenty or so strongest attackers plus the cats and take out the Chinese cities one by one with it.

I think I would try to take three or four cities closest to your current borders from each of the surrounding civs, one war at a time. If you dont have chivalry yet, that would be a good goal to go for. As the others said- build up those cities, you need more workers.

Good luck to you, looks like a fun game!

 

[Ringo Kid]

chrisman1: I do not remember the exact cost, but I have traded for iron by buying a monopoly tech from one AI with all my cash- then trading that tech for the iron, then trading the tech to all the other AI's for whatever I could get to lower the total cost of the deal. Circumstances have to be just right for that one though.

 

[vmxa]

My point was the excorbitant (sp?) prices they were asking. Things like 3 techs plus 100+ gpt. In comparison, when I have traded excess iron, I would be overjoyed to get 50 gpt (and I can't remember ever getting that much).

So, my question still stands...have people been able to get iron for a reasonable price?

The quote seems fictitious to me. Cost are not arbitrary, they have a basis in game mechanics. IOW what is asked is not just taken out of thin air.

It is comprised of all the true cost. So a tech that is 100 beakers, but has been depreciated down to 20, is valued at 20. So three techs, what techs at what point in the game?

100gpt is a tremendous amount in the early BC, but not so much in the late IA.

So we have no way to evaluate the deal, good or bad. I have traded a single tech for Iron many times, but it is all conditional. If you have Monarchy and they do not, I am betting they will make the trade.

 

[Spoonwood]

If you play an OCC game iron doesn't usually cost too much. You can even sometimes get a resource or luxury for your world map. The point? Cost depends on empire size. To determine how techs translate into costs check what VMXA said and around here.

 

[LowEndUserII]

Thanks for all the responses. I was interested in playing America , which I never play, mostly for the Scout, who of course turned up nothing...I wanted to keep all Victory Options open, hence the settings.

First, yes only 15 towns and cities. The placement is a function of getting pinched as China and Aztecs expanded and pushing a Settler down South to get horses. I built ( too soon ) a ( useless) Horse Army and in 10+ turns I was then able to trade a few Techs to Japanese for Iron, built some MI, which took forever due to small city size and slow build rate , and took the 3 lower Iroqouis cities, which really didn`t even pay for the units costs.

Probably should have rolled the dice and went for China with a large Cat/Spears/Archer stack early....but they have MI as well now, and the game looks stalled out and tribute requests are coming more often and Education will soon kill the GL.

 

[Tribute]

Good job, you got them, that should really help with space since you've gained quite a bit for your important towns. Additionally, the towns you captured are really close to your capital, making them very useful to you. (Perhaps even more so than to the Iroquois!) At any rate, you should be at peace with the Iro's. Make sure your workers improve the newly conquered area. Build a cultural building in the southern two Iroquois towns since you want the expanded border, for increased productivity (as well as future defense against cultural flips).

From what I see, you seem to know the Iroquois, China, the Zulu, the Aztecs, and Egypt (from the pic before). (And somehow, Japan?) Did you make any new contacts with the galleys (if you built them, which I hope you did)?

I hope that horseman army isn't dead because you need to really move it up north and get to China as soon as possible. The point of this is to take and hold Shanghai. (I would've gone with a spearman army for that purpose, though.) Use your money well. As soon as the deal with the Japanese (for iron) will run out (2 turns left), rush as many medieval infantry (and a few pikemen) as possible (in towns with barracks). And then with 1 turn left, change as many to making medieval infantry (or knights if you can). Do this only if you feel that you don't want to renew such an expensive deal (for instance, if Japan isn't that far behind).

Once you rush out 5 or so medieval infantry and have built a few more, then perhaps the tribute requests will decrease in frequency. You just need a more powerful army. (And horsemen, unfortunately, don't inspire much fear into the AI.) You should have enough money for all this rushing, and should save some to rush a wall around Shanghai (and perhaps a barracks too, so that you can quickly heal or have the option to rush spears/pikes).

If you want some more advice, it's best to give us more information. Perhaps another screenshot of your empire? And maybe some information about the technology situation. Oh, and do you remember if China has more than 1 source of iron? Because if they don't..., you'd really, really want to take Shanghai.

I hope this helps.

 

[Ringo Kid]

the Scout, who of course turned up nothing...
That is unusual, scouts should get you most of the ancient techs for free and/or im trade. What happened? How many scouts did you build?

What would worry me about China is when they get Chivalry. Those Riders will trigger a GA, and the last thing you want to see is twenty million of those things coming at you. That would be a bad thing. Ouch! I am surprised it hasnt happened to you yet..or did it?

 

[Tribute]

Too true. You may not want to go to war with China if they have more than 1 source of iron. If they lack horses, then it would be okay, so long as they cannot build riders after you take Shanghai. But since nobody's at Chivalry yet, you'd need to hurry either way if you want their iron.

 

[LowEndUserII]

Ringo Kid...I just used the default Scout that you get at start, he turned up 1 Free Warrior and that`s it

Tribute, I probably should have razed the Iroquois cities and put in my settlers to get better placement but didn`t want to tick the AI civs off even more. Rome is up NE BTW. I agree I probably should manage my own cities.

I think that & the narrow neck of land squeezed map at start did me in. I do Warrior, Warrior, Settler first builds. Ision lists the Americans as "explosive Industrious and Expansionist" but if so I sure didn`t see it happen in the early C3C game start at all..... Very slow unit builds compared to Persia, Zulu and even Japanese, my Warmonger Faves.

China had one source of Iron, but now probably has many Pikes & MI, also the rough terrain up there makes going tough for horse units attacking IMO.

I guess I could re-load and try an early Horse/Archer rush at China instead of later Iroquois but I dislike doing that....

I don`t give up fast, but I just don`t think this one is winable, even survivable, at my skill set with all AI Civs "annoyed" with me, no Lux to trade , no Iron and behind in Tech,unless the AI`s gets to serious fighting with each other. Bummer

 

[chrisman1]

chrisman1: I do not remember the exact cost, but I have traded for iron by buying a monopoly tech from one AI with all my cash- then trading that tech for the iron, then trading the tech to all the other AI's for whatever I could get to lower the total cost of the deal. Circumstances have to be just right for that one though.

I just deleted my saves from the last game this morning so I can't tell you all the trades I could have made but couldn't stomach the price.

The one I tried this morning before deleting was iron for 45 gpt, 1245 gold lump sum, and a monopoly tech. Can't remember what tech it was but the date was around 1000 A.D. somewhere in the middle ages.

Either way, I managed to dominate by holding a chokepoint with spearmen and horses until I had cavalry at which point I annihilated everyone. That was my first try on regent, moved up to the level below deity (monarch?) this morning. Will be interesting.

 

[Ringo Kid]

I would say build at least four scouts, mix them in between building settlers during the early game, ie before the population grows to where you can build a settler.

I just could'nt resist trying your save out myself; took me until 1280 but I did take all the Chinese cities. I used your leader to make a spear army, and built cats and archers and MI to attack with. It was fun!

I noticed you had some towns with too many garrisoned units and some with not enough.
In monarchy three warriors as garrison will keep your city happier; allowing faster unit production. You have to adjust that as the town grows, sometimes two garrisons will do for smaller towns or corrupt towns.

Also for my taste you had too much irrigation and not enough mines. More mines equals more shields= more units = more enemies defeated earlier.

 

[Tribute]

Yeah, scout building is all about map size, really. You want to know the terrain around you a bit (, which you'll get if you send each scout you make off in different directions), and you also want to get as many contacts as possible, so send scouts off in 1 general direction until they see someone or need to make small detours for goody huts (or mountain/hill terrain)

I'm sorry if this sounds rude, but do you know how production works? Each civilization can produce at the same rate if they have the same number of shields. You increase the number of shields by mining tiles, increasing population, more land per city, reducing corruption, and (eventually, railing mined tiles). The things mentioned may not directly or immediately increase the shields generated by a city but in the long run, they will. So this thought: "Very slow unit builds compared to Persia, Zulu and even Japanese, my Warmonger Faves." is not truly correct.

I think your production problem is mainly a terrain thing. Plains only give 1 shield (and should be irrigated not mined). Grassland also only gives 1 shield (mined not irrigated) but has the chance to be bonus grassland (grassland with a white dot in the middle), which gives 1 extra shield. Your terrain is half plains (which sucks) and mostly irrigated or unimproved grassland. Your land is also very crowded, and you have few rivers to increase your population size. All this contributes to what you may see as slow production.