Does it irk anyone else that Triremes and Galleys can't enter oceans?

[Gaius Octavius]

When I first got Civ 4, I thought "Great! Now we won't have any of that Civ 3 business where a galley would go 'round the world." I'm having second thoughts, now...

It really doesn't make sense to me that I can't colonize an island / continent that is ONE ocean square away from my homeland until I get galleons. (Good grief, just look at the Vikings, Polynesians, and Hawaiians.) I should have the ability to take the risk of losing a galley if I deem it proper. Anybody else ever think about modding the game to go back to the old system, where you have a % each turn for losing ships in oceans?

I'm all for galleys not crossing the Pacific, but one or two ocean squares? That's a bit excessive.

 

[thenooblet22]

When I first got Civ 4, I thought "Great! Now we won't have any of that Civ 3 business where a galley would go 'round the world." I'm having second thoughts, now...

It really doesn't make sense to me that I can't colonize an island / continent that is ONE ocean square away from my homeland until I get galleons. (Good grief, just look at the Vikings, Polynesians, and Hawaiians.) I should have the ability to take the risk of losing a galley if I deem it proper. Anybody else ever think about modding the game to go back to the old system, where you have a % each turn for losing ships in oceans?

I'm all for galleys not crossing the Pacific, but one or two ocean squares? That's a bit excessive.

A tile represents thousands of square feet (I think about 20 miles or so), so that's quite a distance and challenge for a premature vessel. In real life, sure, some might get lucky, but CivIV is based on strategy not luck.

 

[Stolen Rutters]

When I first got Civ 4, I thought "Great! Now we won't have any of that Civ 3 business where a galley would go 'round the world." I'm having second thoughts, now...

It really doesn't make sense to me that I can't colonize an island / continent that is ONE ocean square away from my homeland until I get galleons. (Good grief, just look at the Vikings, Polynesians, and Hawaiians.) I should have the ability to take the risk of losing a galley if I deem it proper. Anybody else ever think about modding the game to go back to the old system, where you have a % each turn for losing ships in oceans?

I'm all for galleys not crossing the Pacific, but one or two ocean squares? That's a bit excessive.

I like the system. One ocean tile can be crossed if you have cultural pressure on that tile (culture can reach one tile out into the ocean and your ship can move through it). It forces you to have a presence to get to the next island on archipelago.

 

[DigitalBoy]

For the most part, I think galleys not entering oceans is great, but I understand being frustrated at having to research astronomy to be able to colonize land you can see from your shore. >_> Although I like that astronomy is "low" on the tech tree. It'll take a ton of time to research, but you can research astronomy as soon as you get optics and calender, if you need it desperately.

You can't even move through oceans as it stands (unless within your cultural borders). At least CivIII let you move through ocean as long as you ended the turn in a coast tile.

 

[Greybriar]

Does it irk anyone else that Triremes and Galleys can't enter oceans?

It did at first, and still does from time to time. But once I got accustomed to it I used it to my advantage.

 

[Thedrin]

(Good grief, just look at the Vikings, Polynesians, and Hawaiians.)

Poor examples to back up your case.

While the Polynesians did send settler parties across vast distances and did manage to set up trade routes between many islands seperated by vast distances, the mother island of any settler party which went over such large distances rarely managed to maintain much or any control over the resulting societies.

As for the Vikings, the best example would be the Greenland colonies. While the King of Norway did claim authority over these settlements, this effectively resulted in the colonists sending taxes (luxury goods) twice a year to Scandinavia. This would have happend anyway since Greenland was not self sufficient and needed to pay for imported goods. The Norwegian government had limited control over what the colonists actually did.

 

[Tiepolo]

This doesn't support your case in which they couldn't be maintained but it supports his in which civilizations were able to travel large distances to settle.

 

[Dominico]

Its something i have thought about a lot. If you have a rich or seafaring nation it would be fun and realistic to be able to risk galleys in deep water. You could do this in call to power and it made the game more exciting.

Also if you can see the land from where you already are there is no reason why you should not be able to sail across there. This was done on rafts and alsorts of makeshift boats in ancient times. No reason why a galley could not risk the deep water to make it across to the land they can see.

 

[jeremiahrounds]

Doesnt irk me at all. I am sure its moddable though.

 

[Rusty Edge]

I like the system. One ocean tile can be crossed if you have cultural pressure on that tile (culture can reach one tile out into the ocean and your ship can move through it). It forces you to have a presence to get to the next island on archipelago.

It does have merit. I've used it to my advantage , too. Another use for a great artist.

I still think the air & sea game needs work( hopefully in the next expansion). More units, or eras of units. I like the idea of seafareres being able to risk their settlers in galleys, too. Leif The Lucky was one of the survivors on the way to Greenland. Perhaps that abillity should be included in the imperialist or expansionist trait rather than as a seperate seafaring characteristic?

 

[Gaius Octavius]

I've been thinking about this, and it occurs to me that perhaps a moderating route is the best way to go. Let's say we prevent all ocean traveling until compass or some other tech is discovered. After that, your galleys, etc., CAN traverse ocean squares, but there is a chance each turn that they will sink if the turn doesn't end with them in a coast. We probably need to up the ante a bit from Civ 3, say from a 50% chance of sinking to 75% or 90%.

I was so interested in this idea that I went back to Civ 3 and played around a while to see how it worked. I built six galleys as the Spanish (they are seafaring so they get extra moves), built the Great Lighthouse (1 extra move) and sent them out to circumnavigate the globe. All of them eventually sank, of course, but not before I crossed 2 continents and met about 5 new civilizations.

So clearly, since the intent is to prevent major ocean crossings, we need a higher sink rate. Ending one turn in ocean should be dangerous; two turns, and you're basically gone. This limits you to maybe 4 tiles within your coasts, which sounds good.

 

[Swein Forkbeard]

Sinking Galleys and Triremes?! Not what I'd like to have!

 

[TravellingHat]

I can live with them being coasters, but would be nice to be able to make a dash across an ocean strait, while risking loss of the ship if ending it's move in open sea. Of course, this would necessitate an increase in their movement rate to a minimum of 3, but that would be no bad thing (movement of 2* really DOES irk me).

* Barring Nav promotions, which typically will only be available to the Vikings from their Trading Post

 

[covok48]

They had this in civ I. But having your trireme with 2 catapults sink because it wasn't next to a land tile was irritating to most. At least now you can sail on water away from land if it's in your cultural borders.

 

[50_dollar_bag]

Perhaps it could be a promotion available after Navigation 2, very rare that a galley will get that experienced unless you're the Vikings but a cool promotion to have.

 

[Gaius Octavius]

Sinking Galleys and Triremes?! Not what I'd like to have!

I find it strangely ironic that a person with a Viking name would say this.

 

[DrewBledsoe]

It's an interesting point in many ways. Take a real world earth map (say extrahuge size) and say play as the Egyptians. Now run a dozen galleys filled with a dozen settler and escorts down and round Africa, and then round the Med to Gibraltar. Those ship(s) will always, 100% of the time (unless attacked) be successful in their journey. Then say with a 50% odds of sinking each turn, start sailing due west. Now say by a miracle, one of those ships actually reaches the Americas.

You have a new colony somewhere (space allowing) and have made contact with lets say the Incas and Aztecs. But the voyage was such a miracle, that these people in the new colony, have no contact with Egypt anymore, and will become completely isolated. But how on earth do you do that in Civ terms? Also, trading techs with the Aztecs and Incas would be impossible, Your people could teach them the knowledge you possess, but nothing could return to Egypt, as in Civ terms, trading techs assumes constant communication.

On a very iffy point, the above may possibly have happened in real life, no one knows for sure. The early South American and Egyptian civs have many striking similarities. It's one for the guys who like to write huge speculative books that sell millions

Anyways, from the OP's original point, maybe a return to coast, sea and ocean would make sense, with those bits of land (a couple of tiles away) now having sea instead of ocean inbetween, and allowing sea crossing with compass. Thus on a huge earth map, the Vikings could actually cross the North Sea when compass is researched, and invade Britain directly, instead of having to sail down around Latvia, Germany, Denmark, Holland, Belgium and France, which has always seemed a bit ridiculous to me.

 

[Mehmed100]

I would love for early ships to enter oceans. However, I don't think they should be able to completely cross. Maybe one or two tiles.

P.S. In the Barbarians scenario, you can cross the ocean in a galley or trireme.

Perhaps it could be a promotion available after Navigation 2, very rare that a galley will get that experienced unless you're the Vikings but a cool promotion to have.

That could be good.

 

[Rusty Edge]

It's an interesting point in many ways. Take a real world earth map (say extrahuge size) and say play as the Egyptians. Now run a dozen galleys filled with a dozen settler and escorts down and round Africa, and then round the Med to Gibraltar. Those ship(s) will always, 100% of the time (unless attacked) be successful in their journey. Then say with a 50% odds of sinking each turn, start sailing due west. Now say by a miracle, one of those ships actually reaches the Americas.

You have a new colony somewhere (space allowing) and have made contact with lets say the Incas and Aztecs. But the voyage was such a miracle, that these people in the new colony, have no contact with Egypt anymore, and will become completely isolated. But how on earth do you do that in Civ terms? Also, trading techs with the Aztecs and Incas would be impossible, Your people could teach them the knowledge you possess, but nothing could return to Egypt, as in Civ terms, trading techs assumes constant communication.

On a very iffy point, the above may possibly have happened in real life, no one knows for sure. The early South American and Egyptian civs have many striking similarities. It's one for the guys who like to write huge speculative books that sell millions

Anyways, from the OP's original point, maybe a return to coast, sea and ocean would make sense, with those bits of land (a couple of tiles away) now having sea instead of ocean inbetween, and allowing sea crossing with compass. Thus on a huge earth map, the Vikings could actually cross the North Sea when compass is researched, and invade Britain directly, instead of having to sail down around Latvia, Germany, Denmark, Holland, Belgium and France, which has always seemed a bit ridiculous to me.

I believed it, even went to see The RA EXPEDITIONS circa 69 0r '70...

Sadly, the Human Genome Project indicates it didn't happen.

On the other hand, the HGP says the Hurons crossed the Atlantic from Europe on an ice shelf...

 

[TravellingHat]

I like the sound of 50 Dollar Bag's post-Nav promotion, but wouldn't this become defunct when upgrading to later ocean-going vessels? Perhaps for those vessels it could equate to additional movement.

Drew's suggestion of a third "sea" category sounds like a nice solution - this could apply to any shallow non-coastal waters (gulfs, inland seas etc), as well as an additional ring of "continental shelf" off the coast. These waters could be navigable to coasters, perhaps (borrowing 50 Dollar Bag's idea) with Nav promotions or once the compass is discovered, and maybe with a -1 movement penalty (a marine version of difficult terrain). It would be easy enough to represent this by a gradient in colour, as can be seen on any topographical map.