Greek Phalanx

[Ganthan]

Still not very good at this game yet, but eventually I want to try playing as the Greeks. I'm a little curious about their unique unit, the Phalanx. I'm using Beyond the Sword so it replaces the Axeman, which initially didn't make much sense until I realized that the Greeks were never renowned for using axes in battle.

The issue here is that they have +100% defense against Chariots and Chariots have +100% attack against Axemen. Does this mean that the two values cancel each other out and that the Phalanx is basically just an Axeman without a weakness against Chariots, or is the unique unit recognized as a different unit from the unit it replaces? If the latter, it would give the Phalanx a considerable advantage against attacking Chariots, most famously demonstrated by Alexander at the battle of Gaugamela where Greek phalanxes effortlessly repelled 100 Persian scythed chariots.

 

[Ghpstage]

They cancel out which gives the Phalanxes an advantage on account of their higher base strenght and ability to use defensive bonuses. On paper this bonus is very good, but against AI its pretty unimpressive as it fails to build counter units properly.

 

[jgroth1978]

Also take into account that Alexander is AGG, so your phalanx units can be recruited with Combat II, provided you build barracks. This can give you an edge against other bronze age units, and even an edge against Roman praetorians.

 

[Clam Spammer]

It's a waste of a UU. All it does is save you having to build one spearman (if the AI even has horses) in an axe rush. Even then, building a spearman is probably better, since chariots still have some chance of beating a phalanx (4 vs 5 strength).

 

[ParadigmShifter]

Yeah the Greeks starting with hunting kind of makes them a bit /meh.

 

[Yoshiegg737]

Phalanx is awesome because it belongs to Greece.

And Greece is awesome!

Not much of a helpful post, I know

 

[jokulmorder]

phalanx is better against humans; it also means you can avoid hunting if your opponent has horses

 

[Dhoomstriker]

it also means you can avoid hunting if your opponent has horses

That idea of skipping Hunting sounds good in theory but the Greek Civ starts with Fishing and Hunting. So, even that possible benefit (being able to build Warriors alongside Phalanxes) does not even exist.


The more that I hear about this Unique Unit, the less impressed that I am.

I'd much rather have a Spearman or two in my stack than rely on Phalanxes. I mean, how many people on the forums advocate standing in one spot and hoping that the enemy attacks you? In particular, we are talking about countering 2-movement units that are just screaming "Pillage, pillage, pillage!," while you're sitting there in a Forest just hoping that you'll get attacked. Prepare to say goodbye to your improvements!

At least if I have a Spearman, I can go on the offensive. Now, if Phalanxes had a pure +100% bonus against Chariots, then yeah, I could see them being reasonably useful, since I could not only defend but attack Chariots; but only on defense just doesn't do it for me.

It's not even a +100% defensive bonus against Mounted Units, which could feasibly give it a leg up on Spearman against Horse Archers, kind of like an "in between Spearman and Pikeman" stack defender.


At least the Greek Odeon, their Unique Building, is a solid Happiness-boosting Building, making up for their throw-away Unique Unit. It also allows for 2 additional Artist Specialist slots, giving one a chance to run Slavery in place of Caste System for a lot longer in a Cultural Victory attempt. I also imagine that it works similar to the Incan Terrace, in that it is a capturable Building which produces Culture, meaning that Conquest or Domination against an opponent with Construction (for their own Colosseums) becomes considerably easier, due to immediate Cultural output as soon as the captured Cities come out of revolt.

 

[*Svart*]

you are too strict with the poor phalanx.

IMHO phalanx is great, it is just like an ordinary axeman but he looks cooler.

 

[Dhoomstriker]

IMHO phalanx is great, it is just like an ordinary axeman but he looks cooler.

Well, it is certainly hard to argue with that line of reasoning.

For those of you who are Phalanx die-hard fans, the latest Beyond the Sword Game of the Month game features Alexander--and there are even War Elephants nearby should your Phalanxes end up being NOT QUITE powerful enough to conquer the entire world.

 

[jokulmorder]

That idea of skipping Hunting sounds good in theory but the Greek Civ starts with Fishing and Hunting. So, even that possible benefit (being able to build Warriors alongside Phalanxes) does not even exist.

Hmm, yeah that's another reason to dislike the greeks i suppose.

At least if I have a Spearman, I can go on the offensive. Now, if Phalanxes had a pure +100% bonus against Chariots, then yeah, I could see them being reasonably useful, since I could not only defend but attack Chariots; but only on defense just doesn't do it for me.

You can go on the offensive with phalanxes against chariots, it's the same as a regular axeman on the offensive (pretty good odds at 5 to 4 power).

It's not even a +100% defensive bonus against Mounted Units, which could feasibly give it a leg up on Spearman against Horse Archers, kind of like an "in between Spearman and Pikeman" stack defender.

If it were +100% defense, there'd be almost not point in the greeks getting spearmen, heck, even knights wouldn't be able to crush axe stacks.

 

[jordiflor]

I usually play Pericles because I like Phi/Cre traits very much, and I have never found phalanxs to make any difference. They're just greek axes.
Thinking about it.... maybe it's time to switch to unrestricted leaders.

 

[Dhoomstriker]

If it were +100% defense, there'd be almost not point in the greeks getting spearmen

You'd still get Spearmen for attacking Mounted Units. I'd still rather fight against Mounted Units by attacking with a Spearman than with an Axeman.

heck, even knights wouldn't be able to crush axe stacks.

On the contrary, Knights and Pikes are reasonably-well matched. Phalanxes with +100% defensive bonus against Mounted Units wouldn't be as strong as Pikes on defense and would absolutely suck on offense.

It would be more like Landsknecht Unique Unit, which is a Pikeman that gets a +100% bonus against Melee Units (except I'm only talking about the defensive bonus for Phalanxes), in that the bonus isn't anywhere near game-breaking and is a bonus that isn't good enough to replace a different unit, but it does actually make one feel more compelled to build a few additional units of that type like any reasonable Unique Unit should encourage you to do.

 

[*Svart*]

Well, it is certainly hard to argue with that line of reasoning.

For those of you who are Phalanx die-hard fans, the latest Beyond the Sword Game of the Month game features Alexander--and there are even War Elephants nearby should your Phalanxes end up being NOT QUITE powerful enough to conquer the entire world.

i was meaning that phalanx brutally sucks