How do anti-aircraft works in Civ VII?

[bumpyglint]

As the title says—this system is still unclear (and surprise, the Civilopedia is no help).

I just finished a multiplayer game, and none of us really understands how aircraft vs. aircraft combat works—or if it's just completely bugged.

We hadn’t unlocked the advanced airplane tier, so this is only about the first tier of aircraft. Here’s what we managed to figure out:

What we think is happening:

• Bombers and Trench Fighters can’t intercept or block other airplanes. They only attack land/naval units or defend themselves if attacked by enemy planes.
• Biplanes, based on their description, are supposed to be the anti-air units. As far as we can tell, they can engage enemy aircraft in two main ways:
  • Situation A: an enemy airplane attacks "near" a Biplane. The Biplane will automatically intercept it. You can’t choose whether or not it defends—it just does it.
  • Situation B: you use the special “Air Sweep” or whatever it’s called from the Airdrome. This sends all Biplanes from the Airdrome to clear the skies in a certain zone and intercept enemy planes actively.

Questions we still don’t have answers to:

• In Situation A (enemy attack near Biplane), if I have 5 Biplanes in the area, does just one intercept, or do all five respond at once against one single enemy airplane attacking?
• What’s the interception range for Biplanes in Situation A? We expected 8 tiles from the Airdrome (same as movement range), but enemy Bombers could attack from exactly 8 tiles away without being intercepted. Bug or hidden mechanic?
• How many times can a single Biplane intercept per turn? It looks like more than once, but it's unclear. Also—they seem to lose movement each time they intercept? Could that be limiting their effective interception range? (explaining previous bullet)
• Sometimes enemy Bombers would one-shot my Biplanes, even though mine had better combat stats and promotions for anti-air. My theory: the enemy was using that coordinated multi-plane attack (where 3–4 aircraft attack with one command), and my Biplane was intercepting each of them one by one, slowly dying from being overwhelmed. Still, doesn’t fully make sense, especially since I also had the Democracy policy that boosts aircraft strength in friendly territory (but maybe starting the attack from enemy territory didn't count it as in friendly territory...).
• Later, the opposite of previous bullet happened: my 2 Biplanes were wiping enemy Bombers out instantly. They didn’t take any damage—literally 100 HP even after combat. Not even 99. How?? Bug? Promotion stacking? Random dice roll? It’s completely inconsistent, I expected at least 1 HP of damage.
  

Anyone who’s figured this out—or has access to a dev explanation—please help clarify. Right now this system feels "strange" at least.

Thanks to all!!

 

[jaegermeister]

This is a very good question, I myself struggle with it as well.

Additionally I also would like to ask why the hell don't we have AA guns as units in this game? We had them in Civ6 as far as I remember. Why do we have to deploy air units always? Can't we deploy AA guns here and there and create a sort of shield over the country? Plus, where is the radar? How could they possibly leave that out, given its significant role in ww2.

It feels like the modern era was not really designed with care. They just brushed up some lines and let them stay like that. People get pissed when we say the game is unfinished, but damn, it really is unfinished.

They really should activate the Steam workshop and let the modders finish this game properly.

 

[bumpyglint]

This is a very good question, I myself struggle with it as well.

Additionally I also would like to ask why the hell don't we have AA guns as units in this game? We had them in Civ6 as far as I remember. Why do we have to deploy air units always? Can't we deploy AA guns here and there and create a sort of shield over the country? Plus, where is the radar? How could they possibly leave that out, given its significant role in ww2.

It feels like the modern era was not really designed with care. They just brushed up some lines and let them stay like that. People get pissed when we say the game is unfinished, but damn, it really is unfinished.

They really should activate the Steam workshop and let the modders finish this game properly.

Agree, I guess AA is not in the game for simplification. Steam Workshop would be incredibly useful for tons of reason, no idea why it's not yet there.

Answering all those questions is really difficult—mainly because when aircraft engage in combat or get destroyed, there's no notification or clear feedback explaining what just happened. We’re left guessing, trying to piece it together by manually checking which planes are still alive and what their HP looks like afterward.

 

[stealth_nsk]

AA is not in the game for conceptual reasons. In all previous Civ games where AA was available, it just made aircraft unnecessary. You could use your numerous land units gathered on previous eras, protect them with AA and be great. AA was necessary, because in previous games it was possible to beeline techs and runaway civ could get aircraft early, so other civs need a way to defend.

However, in Civ7 with science reset, there isn't that big difference in how early each civ reaches flight, so Firaxis had possibility to make the first civ game where aircraft really matters and they didn't want to ruin it with AA.

 

[jaegermeister]

That is a poor explanation. It's like saying no need to put tanks, since there are bombers. I mean... it's rock scissors paper anyway. Something will always kill something else. You need to balance things out - that's a part of the development. You can reduce the AA damage or restrict its range (+1 tile circle instead of +5 or so). Advanced ships also have to have AA capabilities, it's not only a ground thing either. Every advanced ship in ww2 was equipped with AA guns so that they wouldn't be just bombed easily. In the current Civ7 framework, you can bomb all sea vessels using your aircraft, it's broken. If the enemy does not have fighters, no matter how big of a fleet he has, it's just gonna get bombed, and there is nothing he can do about it.

Anyway, bottom line is you can't just remove core stuff from warfare because you couldn't think of how to balance it. AAs were a game changer in ww2, which corresponds to the late-modern era in Civ7. 88flak gun of germany, or bofors or such, they really changed the course of warfare. high-altitude bombers were developed partially due to this. Same goes for radar.

 

[bumpyglint]

AA is not in the game for conceptual reasons. In all previous Civ games where AA was available, it just made aircraft unnecessary. You could use your numerous land units gathered on previous eras, protect them with AA and be great. AA was necessary, because in previous games it was possible to beeline techs and runaway civ could get aircraft early, so other civs need a way to defend.

However, in Civ7 with science reset, there isn't that big difference in how early each civ reaches flight, so Firaxis had possibility to make the first civ game where aircraft really matters and they didn't want to ruin it with AA.

I'm fine with the current model—as long as it's clear how it works (which it isn't right now). I assume the lack of a response means others aren't sure either about how it works. The other key thing is that it's not bugged, though with all the random bugs in this game, it's hard to tell what's intentional and what isn't.

 

[stealth_nsk]

I'm fine with the current model—as long as it's clear how it works (which it isn't right now). I assume the lack of a response means others aren't sure either about how it works. The other key thing is that it's not bugged, though with all the random bugs in this game, it's hard to tell what's intentional and what isn't.

Yep, bugs are a problem, but it's just a question of time before they get fixed.

 

[Siptah]

Agree, I guess AA is not in the game for simplification. Steam Workshop would be incredibly useful for tons of reason, no idea why it's not yet there.

There civmods currently, which isn't integrated into steam, but does a similar job. You can find it on civmods.com.

Answering all those questions is really difficult—mainly because when aircraft engage in combat or get destroyed, there's no notification or clear feedback explaining what just happened. We’re left guessing, trying to piece it together by manually checking which planes are still alive and what their HP looks like afterward.

I think the best way to check your questions is during an MP game, honestly. Playing against the AI, there are just too many things that could have happened.

On AA units: I'm relatively happy that they are gone. They were one of the reasons why aircraft was useless when playing against other humans, which always felt wrong. More generally, but off-topic for this thread though, I'm not happy that the rock-paper-scissors system is gone for 90% of the game.

 

[bumpyglint]

Yep, bugs are a problem, but it's just a question of time before they get fixed.

I hope so… It's been two months and we still have some really basic (and urgent) bugs unresolved. On top of that, every new patch seems to introduce even more bugs. I'm patiently waiting

There civmods currently, which isn't integrated into steam, but does a similar job. You can find it on civmods.com.


I think the best way to check your questions is during an MP game, honestly. Playing against the AI, there are just too many things that could have happened.

On AA units: I'm relatively happy that they are gone. They were one of the reasons why aircraft was useless when playing against other humans, which always felt wrong. More generally, but off-topic for this thread though, I'm not happy that the rock-paper-scissors system is gone for 90% of the game.

I'll check "civmods", thanks.

We actually tried to figure things out during the multiplayer game, but it was really difficult and unclear. Like I mentioned, one of the biggest issues is that the game doesn't clearly communicate what's happening. There's no proper notification when one of your air units engages with another — units just disappear or take damage, and you're left guessing who fought who and what the engagement range was.

Still, I guess I'll give it another shot with my friends.

 

[Taefin]

I’d be interested in the results of more experimentation, but based on playing against AI:

- I think only one fighter defends any given ground attack. A single fighter will do 80+% damage to a bomber and take maybe 10% damage from a bomber, and maybe 20% damage from a trench fighter. I’ve never been able to find an AI location with more than one fighter to test against, but if more than one could attack, it would instantly kill any ground attack.

- I thought fighters had a range, which seemed to me to match their intercept range.

Regarding AA, I agree with FXS replacing AA with fighters and setting fighters to always intercept. I never got a chance to test RH’s mid in VI that gifted AA to AI, but in vanilla, the AI never built AA and never deployed its fighters, rendering it unable to defend against bombers except with ships that had AA defense (and then GDR).

As it is in VII, AI are very limited in their ability to deploy air units, seemingly not using air commanders, rarely using ground attacks (I’ve heard stories of folks seeing one, but I haven’t), and usually just putting one fighter in a few aerodromes. But given FXS 2-person AI team, and commanders looking to be on the short list for AI improvements, count me cautiously optimistic.

 

[Lanthar]

I feel that aircraft and AA was done well in IV and V. They were important to have. Aircraft in VI were completely useless in every game I played. Very disappointing.

 

[Krikkit1]

Yep, bugs are a problem, but it's just a question of time before they get fixed.

Bugs are A problem... the other problem is poor documentation which means we don't even know what is a bug and what is working as intended.

As for Ground/Naval based AA capabilities... I think that would be a good function of commanders....
If an Air unit attacks a Ground/Naval unit that is in range of a Land/Naval Commander... then the Ground/Naval unit takes less damage and the Air unit takes more based on the commanders Total Promotions (possibly less for Land than for Naval)
Maybe have it require/be more with certain technologies.
So that way there is some AA effect, but it can be enough to slow down air attacks but still keep air superiority strong.

 

[Lazy sweeper]

I feel that aircraft and AA was done well in IV and V. They were important to have. Aircraft in VI were completely useless in every game I played. Very disappointing.

In IV Sea and Air units still worked as transports. The Moses split the waters moment came with V. There's an exodus in between.

Back to Civ 3, Japanese used to Airlift paratroopers and Ninjas (!) behind enemy lines, with cover Air support.
Nothing remotely close to that efficiency has been achieved in IV.
V then is completely another game entirely. No instant kills, artillery units reign supreme. Air combat suddenly had become so OP it was breaking the game.
You could not stack Flaks units on a single tile but Bombers could coordinate attack on a single tile... you see the problem?
It is a balance problem first and foremost.

 

[tman2000]

As the title says—this system is still unclear (and surprise, the Civilopedia is no help).

I just finished a multiplayer game, and none of us really understands how aircraft vs. aircraft combat works—or if it's just completely bugged.

There's a lot of last minute game functionality that's bootstrapped into the engine that "just barely" works. I honestly don't understand what happened with this game. I'm very interested to know. I doubt they can save it at this point as there's not enough money to be made from a genuine (not band-aid) overhaul.