I feel that Poland in Civ6 is a civ that has a lot of bonuses, but they get nowhere because they aren't good enough at anything. I'm not very familiar with Polish history so I'd like to know from you how a Polish civ should be designed. Perhaps Poland should be a warmonger with bonus for trade routes?
How would you design Poland?
- Thread starter Xandinho
- Start date
Part of me thinks it would be kind of interesting if they got a unique university representing the University of Krakow, and the contribution to Copernicus towards astronomy in general. Not to mention it would kill off the whole "Poland can't get into space" debate. 
The Winged Hussar is also so iconic that it should stay as the UU.
The Winged Hussar is also so iconic that it should stay as the UU.
Well, so far Poland got rulers and general vibe from its 'middle of 14th century medieval kingdom period' twice, being based only on the Piast dynasty ruling the country since 10th century.
The thing is, honestly Poland wasn't particularly unique at anything under Piast dynasty until late 14th century, in the context of medieval Europe as a whole. Like I am Polish and I struggle to think of anything that was particularly unique or huge here when compared with rest of the continent. This is largely because Poland like the entire Eastern and Northern Europe was very backward (already
) in comparision to West - Southern Europe, and it had to spend centuries clearing forests, urbanizing, developing fundamental stuff etc. I also didn't engage in any crazy military adventures, only fought closest neighbours and spend half of this period being divided into small duchies - again, not exactly a major civilization. There is even this saying about Casimir the Great (civ5 guy) that 'when he ascended Poland was wooden, when he left us it was from stone' - his father reunited the country, and Casimir actually begun the golden era that lasted next three centuries until like 1648 (everything went to hell from this year onwards).
The real fun beings from Casimir (ruled 1333 - 1370) to 1648, in the late medieval and early modern period, under Jagiellon dynasty and several competent elective kings. Poland got into personal union with Lithuania (and de facto a lot of Rus people) and they have in this period
- Developed extremely unique political system, which worked very nicely for a long time before turning into a failed state, being very succesful in multiethnic and multireligious harmony and political stability; especially in contrast to reformation and antisemitism of this era, PLC had world's highest Jewish population for a long time
- Was remarkably internally peaceful, stable and free of major civil wars in general
- Engaged in continental geopolitics and military adventures, clashing (and often beating) Teutons, Tatars, Ottomans, Russia, Swedish empire, Romanians and even Habsburg once; winged hussars come from this era, not from medieval one! The vast majority of well - documented great victories of Polish history come from this era
- Had flourishing art, architecture and culture of Gothic, Renaissance and Baroque (there are very few remaining buildings in Poland from before late 14th century)
- Had decent enough scientific infrastructure, especially in mathematics, physics and philosophy, to produce Copernicus, which is probably the only AAA - global - tier Polish scientist from before 19th century (there were also several other very accomplished scholars from this era, but not as well known). Unfortunately it already got into decline by the late 16th century, and PLC contained very few universities when compared with big Western countries (it's a miracle that it has somehow managed to produce Copernicus)
An important thing to note is the fact it was not purely Poland, Poles were like 40 - 50% of its population; second largest group were Ruthenian people of Belarus and Ukraine, then there were Jews and Lithuanians and several other minorities (including Armenians and even like 20 thousand Muslim Tatars). And that's without counting German, Latvian and Moldavian vassals. Personally I'd be more comfortable if it was Poland - Lithuania instead of just Poland. But some Lithuanians have mixed feelings about this periods, considering themselves culturally marginalized and Polonized in this era and preferring prior independent Lithuanian empire, so I'm not sure what I'd do as a developer.
Personally I'd suggest
- Too many good leaders with great personalities in this period to focus on one, the most spectacular would be probably Władysław Jagiełło (ethnically and culturally Lithuanian but there is not a single person in Poland who would deny that or have a problem with that). Less spectacular but next best rated candidates overall could be Sigismund I the Old, Sigismund II Augustus (both still largely Lithuanian but no one has a problem with that anyway) and Stephen Báthory (Romanian/Hungarian, still nobody cares about that). There are many good leaders besides them, but they all have some slight or major controversies and downsides. Jan III Sobieski for example was a great man in the time of miserable decline even he couldn't stop; I'd also vastly prefer Polish leader with the 'peace and tolerance' agenda than an icon of 'religious defence'
- Well I guess winged hussars would remain in this scenario, if we focused on this period, although there were few other remarkable formations.
- My main idea for a district would be Sejmik (local parliament, its character and name very unique to PLC). It has some negative connotations with the later failed state, but actually it was very functional institution for a long time before its degeneration.
- Abilities focusing on diplomacy, stability, tolerance, unique government system and gov abilities, economy and architecture would be very welcome for me, way more than "brave religious horsemen" stereotype of Poland in those kinds of games (I know its largely positive stereotype)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gothic_architecture_in_modern_Poland
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Grunwald
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Renaissance_in_Poland
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Poland_during_the_Jagiellonian_dynasty
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Kircholm
Also for territorial comparision:
Casimir the Great, red stuff is when he began with
Furthest extent of early modern Poland - Lithuania
The thing is, honestly Poland wasn't particularly unique at anything under Piast dynasty until late 14th century, in the context of medieval Europe as a whole. Like I am Polish and I struggle to think of anything that was particularly unique or huge here when compared with rest of the continent. This is largely because Poland like the entire Eastern and Northern Europe was very backward (already
) in comparision to West - Southern Europe, and it had to spend centuries clearing forests, urbanizing, developing fundamental stuff etc. I also didn't engage in any crazy military adventures, only fought closest neighbours and spend half of this period being divided into small duchies - again, not exactly a major civilization. There is even this saying about Casimir the Great (civ5 guy) that 'when he ascended Poland was wooden, when he left us it was from stone' - his father reunited the country, and Casimir actually begun the golden era that lasted next three centuries until like 1648 (everything went to hell from this year onwards).The real fun beings from Casimir (ruled 1333 - 1370) to 1648, in the late medieval and early modern period, under Jagiellon dynasty and several competent elective kings. Poland got into personal union with Lithuania (and de facto a lot of Rus people) and they have in this period
- Developed extremely unique political system, which worked very nicely for a long time before turning into a failed state, being very succesful in multiethnic and multireligious harmony and political stability; especially in contrast to reformation and antisemitism of this era, PLC had world's highest Jewish population for a long time
- Was remarkably internally peaceful, stable and free of major civil wars in general
- Engaged in continental geopolitics and military adventures, clashing (and often beating) Teutons, Tatars, Ottomans, Russia, Swedish empire, Romanians and even Habsburg once; winged hussars come from this era, not from medieval one! The vast majority of well - documented great victories of Polish history come from this era
- Had flourishing art, architecture and culture of Gothic, Renaissance and Baroque (there are very few remaining buildings in Poland from before late 14th century)
- Had decent enough scientific infrastructure, especially in mathematics, physics and philosophy, to produce Copernicus, which is probably the only AAA - global - tier Polish scientist from before 19th century (there were also several other very accomplished scholars from this era, but not as well known). Unfortunately it already got into decline by the late 16th century, and PLC contained very few universities when compared with big Western countries (it's a miracle that it has somehow managed to produce Copernicus)
An important thing to note is the fact it was not purely Poland, Poles were like 40 - 50% of its population; second largest group were Ruthenian people of Belarus and Ukraine, then there were Jews and Lithuanians and several other minorities (including Armenians and even like 20 thousand Muslim Tatars). And that's without counting German, Latvian and Moldavian vassals. Personally I'd be more comfortable if it was Poland - Lithuania instead of just Poland. But some Lithuanians have mixed feelings about this periods, considering themselves culturally marginalized and Polonized in this era and preferring prior independent Lithuanian empire, so I'm not sure what I'd do as a developer.
Personally I'd suggest
- Too many good leaders with great personalities in this period to focus on one, the most spectacular would be probably Władysław Jagiełło (ethnically and culturally Lithuanian but there is not a single person in Poland who would deny that or have a problem with that). Less spectacular but next best rated candidates overall could be Sigismund I the Old, Sigismund II Augustus (both still largely Lithuanian but no one has a problem with that anyway) and Stephen Báthory (Romanian/Hungarian, still nobody cares about that). There are many good leaders besides them, but they all have some slight or major controversies and downsides. Jan III Sobieski for example was a great man in the time of miserable decline even he couldn't stop; I'd also vastly prefer Polish leader with the 'peace and tolerance' agenda than an icon of 'religious defence'
- Well I guess winged hussars would remain in this scenario, if we focused on this period, although there were few other remarkable formations.
- My main idea for a district would be Sejmik (local parliament, its character and name very unique to PLC). It has some negative connotations with the later failed state, but actually it was very functional institution for a long time before its degeneration.
- Abilities focusing on diplomacy, stability, tolerance, unique government system and gov abilities, economy and architecture would be very welcome for me, way more than "brave religious horsemen" stereotype of Poland in those kinds of games
(I know its largely positive stereotype)https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gothic_architecture_in_modern_Poland
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Grunwald
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Renaissance_in_Poland
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Poland_during_the_Jagiellonian_dynasty
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Kircholm
Also for territorial comparision:
Casimir the Great, red stuff is when he began with
Spoiler :
Furthest extent of early modern Poland - Lithuania
Spoiler :
Last edited:
mitsho
Deity
Poland isn‘t lost … yet.
It‘s definitely one of those civs that could benefit from the proposed „nationality“ mechanic - keeping their culture alive even when occupied by foreign forces. However that isn‘t any sort of unique ability you can give to a player in a strategic game, as it requires you to lose some cities or even be wiped off the map. That last one could be a interesting ability for an AI player though. So for such an ability to work, civ7 would need to alter it‘s playing style a lot.
Lastly, Poland could also get some more modern uniques, Cold War era or Solidarnosc or World War Partisans, but of course, you can‘t go wrong with Winged Hussars.
It‘s definitely one of those civs that could benefit from the proposed „nationality“ mechanic - keeping their culture alive even when occupied by foreign forces. However that isn‘t any sort of unique ability you can give to a player in a strategic game, as it requires you to lose some cities or even be wiped off the map. That last one could be a interesting ability for an AI player though. So for such an ability to work, civ7 would need to alter it‘s playing style a lot.
Lastly, Poland could also get some more modern uniques, Cold War era or Solidarnosc or World War Partisans, but of course, you can‘t go wrong with Winged Hussars.
Hellenism Salesman
King
While Winged Hussars are iconic and I don't expect their seat as Poland's UU to shift, I'm unfamiliar with what aspects of them made them exceptional, besides the obvious visual of their wings. I've heard the wings created an intimidating noise (which seems to be the justification for the "scare enemy into retreat" ability they've gotten in the past two games), but is there anything else unique about the Winged Hussars we can use for ability material?
I'd love to see Sigismund II Augustus. Until my master's, I had no idea that Poland was a haven of religious toleration, even for radicals like unitarians, long before Holland and that a significant portion of the Polish nobility converted to Reformed Protestantism.
100% seconded.- Abilities focusing on diplomacy, stability, tolerance, unique government system and gov abilities, economy and architecture would be very welcome for me, way more than "brave religious horsemen" stereotype of Poland in those kinds of games
Well, to my knowledge they were effective anti-cavalry shock cavalry, but I think what really makes them iconic is just how much Poland looked to the East rather than the West aesthetically (Sarmatism). In some cases I'm not sure UUs need to be so much obviously superior to their contemporaries as just emblematic of the people that used them. Hot take: see also, samurai.
Yeah because a typhoon can't count as UU.In some cases I'm not sure UUs need to be so much obviously superior to their contemporaries as just emblematic of the people that used them. Hot take: see also, samurai.
I'd argue ninjas are just as emblematic but harder to depict as a UU, considering they were mercenaries and not representative of feudal Japan, but the opposite.
But in regards to Poland nothing else really comes close to being iconic to the Winged Hussars, at least to my knowledge. The other thing I could see is a Polish Resistance UU from World War II and center the design around an occupied Poland civ which was mentioned above, which would deviate from the Medieval to Early Modern focus that we've had the past two games.
Sirsquier
Warlord
Warsaw Uprising....Yeah because a typhoon can't count as UU.
I'd argue ninjas are just as emblematic but harder to depict as a UU, considering they were mercenaries and not representative of feudal Japan, but the opposite.
But in regards to Poland nothing else really comes close to being iconic to the Winged Hussars, at least to my knowledge. The other thing I could see is a Polish Resistance UU from World War II and center the design around an occupied Poland civ which was mentioned above, which would deviate from the Medieval to Early Modern focus that we've had the past two games.
Sirsquier
Warlord
Their true actual power came from the type of weapons they used (which was adopted by Gustav Adolf) (either they used melee and most calv used ranged or the other way around I don't remmember)
BuchiTaton
Emperor
- Joined
- Jul 8, 2019
- Messages
- 1,259
Poland's civ ability Commonwealth, the first City State you get high level relation would turn to be yours, this city produce free duplicates of any unit and building from your capitals queu.
BuchiTaton
Emperor
- Joined
- Jul 8, 2019
- Messages
- 1,259
It do not need many the ability is just for the first one, and is supposed to represent Poland-Lithuanian Commonwelth as a duality, that is why the city turn to be yours not just a vassal, and have a mirrow relation with your capital. Also the union must be by improve relation, it do not trigger by conquest.
I assumed it was also the case based off the fact that Vilnius was also a city-state in Civ 6, and the chances of Lithuania getting in by itself is probably slim. The duality example though could definitely work for Austria too representing the Austro-Hungarian Empire.
Boris Gudenuf
Deity
Just finished reading the Osprey title on Polish Armies 1569 - 1696, so a word on Early Modern Polish UUs:
Unfortunately, besides the Winged Hussars, the other candidates for Early Modern Polish Unique Units are Polish versions of German Landsknecht units, Pancerni Cossacks, and Haiduken. The latter were simply bandits, and the former will utterly confuse most gamers who think all Cossacks are Russians and the middle - an infantry unit looking and acting exactly like a German infantry unit - makes a lousy Unique for Poland!
What made the Winged Hussars Unique was their appearance, of course. What makes them useful enough to build in the game is that the rest of the heavy cavalry in Europe had given up on Melee and Charging in favor of a slow trot and pistol fire. Thus, they managed to produce some of the most ineffectual cavalry in all of History from about 1550 to 1750. By contrast, the Winged Hussars charged with a heavy lance, and kept pistols (along with axes, sabers, and straight 'armor-piercing' swords) as side-arms, to be used only after the lance broke - if there was a live enemy anywhere within range by that point, which was seldom.
Note that the Poles also remained unique in keeping the lance as a cavalry weapon when Napoleon helped revive the Grand Duchy of Warsaw during the Napoleonic Wars. Polish Uhlans with lances so impressed the rest of Western Europe that everybody started forming lancers and adding lances to their light cavalry. Everybody knows the (false) story about Polish lancers charging German tanks in 1939, few also know the (true) story that the German Army cavalry was All - cuirassiers, dragoons, light cavalry - still carrying lances when they went off to war in 1914 and even after the experiences of 1914 - 1918, issued lances to their cavalry again in the Reichswehr of 1922 - 1933! Talk about Slow Learners . . .
Unfortunately, besides the Winged Hussars, the other candidates for Early Modern Polish Unique Units are Polish versions of German Landsknecht units, Pancerni Cossacks, and Haiduken. The latter were simply bandits, and the former will utterly confuse most gamers who think all Cossacks are Russians and the middle - an infantry unit looking and acting exactly like a German infantry unit - makes a lousy Unique for Poland!
What made the Winged Hussars Unique was their appearance, of course. What makes them useful enough to build in the game is that the rest of the heavy cavalry in Europe had given up on Melee and Charging in favor of a slow trot and pistol fire. Thus, they managed to produce some of the most ineffectual cavalry in all of History from about 1550 to 1750. By contrast, the Winged Hussars charged with a heavy lance, and kept pistols (along with axes, sabers, and straight 'armor-piercing' swords) as side-arms, to be used only after the lance broke - if there was a live enemy anywhere within range by that point, which was seldom.
Note that the Poles also remained unique in keeping the lance as a cavalry weapon when Napoleon helped revive the Grand Duchy of Warsaw during the Napoleonic Wars. Polish Uhlans with lances so impressed the rest of Western Europe that everybody started forming lancers and adding lances to their light cavalry. Everybody knows the (false) story about Polish lancers charging German tanks in 1939, few also know the (true) story that the German Army cavalry was All - cuirassiers, dragoons, light cavalry - still carrying lances when they went off to war in 1914 and even after the experiences of 1914 - 1918, issued lances to their cavalry again in the Reichswehr of 1922 - 1933! Talk about Slow Learners . . .
BuchiTaton
Emperor
- Joined
- Jul 8, 2019
- Messages
- 1,259
Spanish have a long history of Lanceros, it have their roots on Andalusia and their cattle rising tradition but was expanded to all their colonies, Vaqueros, Soldados de Cuera, Charros, Llaneros, Gauchos, and of course the Garrochistas that won againts napoleonic troops.
Boris Gudenuf
Deity
Very true. I'm not saying it was justified, but the western European military regarded most of those troops as 'irregulars' (as they also regarded the Cossacks, who also used the lance throughout the 17th and 18th centuries) and so discounted them as models. The Polish Uhlans were Regular cavalry units, and Napoleon even formed Lancers of the Guard, the most prestigious military force in Europe. Consequently, it was the Polish lance-armed cavalry that most affected the other armies of Europe.
Last edited:
Lonecat Nekophrodite
Deity
- Joined
- Jan 10, 2019
- Messages
- 2,264
Poland may have TWO UUs
- Gusar (Heavy cavalry, replaces knight (Since IRL campaigning 'knights' were actually Serjeans--hired professionals who had no fiefs but no less warrior than the actual knights themselves). This is what (I Think) an actual 'Winged Hussar' name.. but if unit category is to be more fluid then Gusar can do BOTH.
Available with Mercenary policy OR Civic.
- Uhlan. 18th Century upgrades of Gusar (and other lightweight cavalry available). Hardcore lancer (Again!) that's strong VS firepower units. (They ain't no Antitank units y'know? Nazis propaganda machine did trick everyone else in the world beyond the two to believe that Poles used Uhlans against German tank column as charging lancers)
- Gusar (Heavy cavalry, replaces knight (Since IRL campaigning 'knights' were actually Serjeans--hired professionals who had no fiefs but no less warrior than the actual knights themselves). This is what (I Think) an actual 'Winged Hussar' name.. but if unit category is to be more fluid then Gusar can do BOTH.
Available with Mercenary policy OR Civic.
- Uhlan. 18th Century upgrades of Gusar (and other lightweight cavalry available). Hardcore lancer (Again!) that's strong VS firepower units. (They ain't no Antitank units y'know? Nazis propaganda machine did trick everyone else in the world beyond the two to believe that Poles used Uhlans against German tank column as charging lancers)
I'd be happy with going as far as naming the civ Poland-Lithuania, or the Commonwealth (which sounds more distinct in Polish and fits Civ's civ naming convention about as well as HRE, but oh well), because it'd encapsulate what I consider to be most worthy of being represented - the period(s) in Polish history when it wasn't just Poland, when it was part of a greater melting pot of cultures, nationalities and religions. Even though it didn't always work perfectly (certainly didn't work for long) and I might be over-idealising the Commonwealth anyway, I suppose that the internal politics of it make it most unique and deserve to become a base for a Polish civ design. This would possibly bring about quite a bit of issues, I have no idea how to appropriately translate things like multiethnicity, tolerance and dynastic shenanigans into Civ gameplay. Perhaps the Ottomans' and India's UA indicate what it could be like somewhat, or maybe Poland new UA could weave into some new mechanics, like migration or, I don't know, language? Anyway I'd prefer to build upon the internal diversity that the Commonwealth displayed than to (once again) base a significant part of Poland's design on defensibility and the military - I think that modern Polish historical identity focuses on this part and "defending the Christendom" way too much and neglects the heritage of setting up cooperation between nations - and let's not forget that Poland doesn't really have a reputation of pushing back invasions when it's not other empire's capitals being attacked. Events of integration of people of other ethnicities into Poland/Commonwealth happened in many various ways (which remarkably often didn't include military conquest) and I consider it noteworthy.
Regarding the UU, keep the Winged Hussars because you won't come up with a cooler unit, regarding the leader I wanted to see Sigismund II Augustus for the longest time, for no particular reason other than that he's cool, and regarding the Unique Infrastructure, good luck with coming up with anything unique. Just don't go with "Castle" or something like that please. Maybe just go with Crown(/Lithuanian) Tribunal as a unique one(/two) time government building.
Regarding the UU, keep the Winged Hussars because you won't come up with a cooler unit, regarding the leader I wanted to see Sigismund II Augustus for the longest time, for no particular reason other than that he's cool, and regarding the Unique Infrastructure, good luck with coming up with anything unique. Just don't go with "Castle" or something like that please. Maybe just go with Crown(/Lithuanian) Tribunal as a unique one(/two) time government building.
I'm against this because civilizations should represent broader civilizations, not specific polities (*glares at all the nation-state "civs"*). That being said...
I agree with this. The multiplicity of ethnic and religious groups in Poland (Poles, Pomeranians, Lithuanians, Russians, Jews, etc.; Catholic, Orthodox, Protestants of all stripes) is what makes Late Medieval/Early Modern Poland so interesting to me (and why I'm championing Sigismund II Augustus for Civ7).
I kind of liked the Sukiennice, though I don't know how unique it actually is; I also think Krajzen's suggestion of a Sejmik would also work.
When people see Commonwealth, the first thing they might think of is Britain and all their encompassing territories. I wouldn't want to necessarily play a civ called just the Commonwealth, because that is just too vague. For all intents, Poland with Jadwiga is supposed to represent Poland-Lithuania anyway with her Lithuanian Union ability.
I think the Sukiennice is a better unique than the Ducal Stables. That being said Cloth halls were found throughout Medieval Europe, but at least the one in Krakow is one of the largest and most famous.
Wouldn't be surprised to see it as a wonder in the future if it doesn't retain being a unique building.
