Idea: Moving Hwach'a to Gunpowder advance?

[player1 fanatic]

Reasons:

1) To make this UU slightly better. While lethal bombing is ok, against targets with more then 1hp, it

is still as effective as Cannon.
2) For flavor. Why need metallurgy if unit needs no iron
3) To fix graphic glitch with Metallurgy advance when playing Koreans

What do you think?
Good?
Bad?
Unbalanced?


EDIT:
If majority opinion is that Korean UU is pretty good, what about moving it just to Chemistry (to fix graphic glitch)?

 

[Dogmeat]

Improve the low tier units before you improve the high tier units. That's my advice.

 

[Reprisal]

While I don't have a clue what the heck Dogmeat is talking about, I think that if you make the Hwach'a available earlier in the game that you might want to increase the shield cost as a result. Though Korea is somewhat maligned, bombard units are actually a fairly integral part of many effective military campaigns. Even giving the the Koreans, an admittedly weak tribe in most occasions, access to a cannon might be unbalancing since they would get strength twelve bombard so many techs before anyone else.

- Rep.

 

[player1 fanatic]

It's just 8, not 12.
Same as cannon in most cases.
Exempt they can kill 1hp units.

 

[Dogmeat]

What are you talking about yourself? Commercial and Scientific, the two strongest traits next to agricultural and industrious make the Koreans more than a weak tribe.
And this is the Conquests board, so that means Hwacha have a bombard of 8 but LETHAL BOMBARD (!).

 

[player1 fanatic]

Improve the low tier units before you improve the high tier units. That's my advice.

Well, I do consder Korean UU a low tier (although one of the better low tiers). Also Korea doesn't have best set of traits either (IMHO, I'll play Greeks instead).

First, in 90% of cases when bombing you'll bomb unit with more then 1hp, and then this UU is exactly as good as normal cannon.

In rest 10% cases if targeting land, Cavalry can do the trick even better (since it's mobile).

It is surely useful to keep some after RParts, but it's not too big advantage anyway.


Changes I'm proposing, will pretty much keep this UU same as before, but with early access, to make it at least a little better then cannon.

 

[Dogmeat]

It's just 8, not 12.
Same as cannon in most cases.
Exempt they can kill 1hp units.

Exempt that any attacks against a civ with more than 20 of these beast are futile...

 

[Dogmeat]

Well, I do consder Korean UU a low tier

Have you played the Koreans?

 

[player1 fanatic]

Don't forget that when bombing stacks of units, since Hwatch has RoF of 1, you need to take out 1hp from 1st unit, 1hp from next units, etc...

At the end when all units get 1hp, you could opt for destroying them with Hwach'a, or use Cavalry instead.

Lethal bombing is advanatge, but not big enough.

In most cases, can't even use it, since enemy units will have too many hp.

P.S.
Although against ships, it's pretty ok.

 

[player1 fanatic]

Have you played the Koreans?

Few times, although I must admit, I played far more often bombing campaigns with other civs.

And in those cases Cavarly did as good job as Hwatch'a (or even better) for taking out 1hp units.


P.S.
I don't consder sci&com too good trait combo, but maybe it's just me. Probably because it takes time to make difference.

 

[player1 fanatic]

Still, I must say, the changes I proposed are not too drasic to change power of Hwatch'a too much.

Although it would be pretty cool for civs that have only saltpeter as resource (musket + longbow + hwach'a).

 

[Dogmeat]

P.S.
I don't consder sci&com too good trait combo, but maybe it's just me. Probably because it takes time to make difference.

3 wasted shields to 2 wasted shields in that far-away city can make a 10-30 turn difference on those temples you need so badly in the ancient age..

 

[player1 fanatic]

Sure, but I prefer Comercial combined with some other more active trait (like Industrial or Agr).


P.S.
Forgot to add that Hwach'a lethal option can be more useful in cases when you lack mobile units (like no Horses).

Since then it's better to kill last unit in stack with bombardment then to leave your attacker vulnerable on open.

 

[player1 fanatic]

Anyway, if Hwach'a was more mobile (range of 2), I would probably think of it as very good UU (maybe even unbalanced). But since its mobility is not much, I don't think that lethal on its own makes too much difference (since there are other ways to take out 1hp units).

 

[player1 fanatic]

I must say that whole idea about moving Hwach'a to another advance came to me when I realized that when looking at teach screen in medieval era, positioning of Metallurgy advance sure looked ugly.

Then I realized that Hwach'a had nothing to do with Metallurgy, since there is no need for Iron (similar point could be said for Chivalry, but then there are no techs in game such as Elephant training of Advance Cavalry).

And then that it's not too great UU (but has some use).

 

[player1 fanatic]

To add:
If majority opinion is that Korean UU is pretty good, what about moving it just to Chemistry (to fix graphic glitch)?

 

[Aggie]

Well, a unit that has lethal bombardment is a deadly weapon. True, they only have a movement rate of 1, but they can kill redlined units in cities and then you can just walk into them. Also: scientific and commerical are great traits. If you think that scientific is a 'passive' trait (whatever you mean by that) than you probably don't use the slingshot of a free tech to it's fullest. It is not uncommon to win 5 techs with that free one. I admit that a free tech doesn't help you much when you are far advanced. But in games where you are behind in tech it's a great help.

 

[Pfeffersack]

I agree with Dogmeat.Commercial and Scienctific are good traits and the combo is even a better - commercial is the ideal supporting trait for scienific.More cash, lower corruption.Of course, Greek has the same traits, but I woulnd't prefer it generally.Ok, if I suspect to be under heavy attack in the AA, but otherwise I prefer the later GA.

And the Hwach'a itself is not a bad unit (no ressource need, useful later on).Maybe not among the best (and for the AI rather useless, but thats another point - the human player is able to mass produce und use them), but thats IMHO no reason to improve it - this would mean improving a lot more of the UUs.A UU has to be seen in combo with the traits (think of the Mayan Javelineer, rather expensive for what it does, despite lowering the price would be a bad idea).Thats the reason why I personally rate the Sumerian UU near unbalancing...

 

[player1 fanatic]

Actually, I agree Pfeffersack that UU should be balanced together with civ traits.

With that in regard, Celts and Iroquois are way too good, while Aztec and Inca are balanced regradless of somewhat weak UUs (Agr trait saves them).


P.S.
Anyway, maybe I'll just try moving it to Chemistry instead.
At least to fix graphic glitch and some common sense (metallurgy means using Metal, Iron).

 

[socralynnek]

Hey, that's a good idea, making UU earlier available, at least the not so strong ones, so I fully support moving it to Chemistry.

So maybe, since there are so many Knight and Cavalry UUs, maybe make the weaker Knight replacements available with Feudalism and the weaker Cavalry replacements available with Chemistry or so.