Is Expansive underrated?

[Legal_My_Deagle]

Most people here from what I can tell see Expansive as a pretty "meh" trait, or worse.

I used to like it a lot when I was newer to the game but then stopped using it as much when I got more experienced with this game...and now have come possibly full circle in to liking it again.

Why?

Well, if you value cheap buildings by how much time they save you building, and by the % of cities you build them in, then cheap Granaries and Harbers at least to me are some of the most useful cheap buildings to have in this game. Granaries are usually at least one of the first 3 buildings I build in a new city, depending on the circumstances. Especially in the begining of the game, where Granary helps you whip so much. And what coastal city are you NOT going to build a Harbor in?

Worker production bonus: this seems to be a major point of controvery about Expansive, but frankly I don't care that much about this portion of the trait. I tend to only build about 6-8 workers in a standard sized map currently, so over all that doesn't really help me a lot IMO.

However, the +2 is a bonus that is extremely subtle in how it helps you, so this could possibly one reason that Expansive might be under-appreciated. Faster city growth is always good, but what I really like about the trait is all of the little things that this allows you to do that you probably wouldn't with a non-Expansive civ.....such as spamming all of the unhealthy buildings that produce a lot of for example.

At least with me, with a non Expansive leader I don't tend to spam these things nearly as much. Forges, Coal Plants, Industrial Parks, oh my!

Then of course you are just less likely to need to trade for resources, and therefore more likely to get other bonuses instead.

And also since you are therefore able to support a larger population, you get more votes!

So I think Expansive offers a lot of subtle and/or indirect benefits that make it hard to appreciate and thus unpopular. Does anybody agree? It could be that part of the reason I like Expansive is because I like to grow my cities as big as possible.

Or the big question is, is if you think the Expansive is on par compared to the other traits?

 

[CorneliusScipio]

It was a good trait. But why they nerfed it not once but twice is totally beyond me. With a simple change to the XML to make it +3 Health and +50% worker production it's a good one. As is, it is not.

 

[GT_OKEZ]

It was a good trait. But why they nerfed it not once but twice is totally beyond me. With a simple change to the XML to make it +3 Health and +50% worker production it's a good one. As is, it is not.

I agree , its underrated . And the above is absolutely true . + 3 health and + 50% worker production ( even if it is just hammers , I think it should be applied to food as well) would make it the trait it deserves to be . I also change XML for this since Exp has been really brought down . I call this true expansive and with true expansive , it can be a pretty handy trait .

 

[playshogi]

The expansive trait was boosted in BTS indirectly, because of the new health penalties associated with coal and oil.

 

[Common Sensei]

With the increased unhealthiness in BTS, I think it could probably be moved back to +3, or at the very least half-price Hospitals

 

[kniteowl]

I believe they nerfed the worker bonus because of shaka and the fact you can expand faster then an Imp Civ which was a little strange. I do agree that they should get 3 health again.

 

[Fireseal]

rofl "I start fires!"




jk

 

[Legal_My_Deagle]

It would be cool if they boosted it back to +3

 

[AfterShafter]

It's my favorite secondary trait, and a great trait overall. That some people put it in bottom, or even middle tier, tells me that it's underrated.

 

[Polycrates]

I think Expansive is an extremely solid trait, even after the BtS nerf (I would argue that BtS has actually made it slightly stronger with health and customs houses).

The most important part of Expansive for me is that it allows for an incredibly powerful start.

Cheaper workers really do make a difference, even with only the 25%. That first worker is coming out sooner, giving you a few turns of advantage in empire-wide production and a headstart on improvement.
Once that first one is done, the fact that food doesn't get the production bonus really doesn't matter, since there is no reason you should ever be applying more than 1 or 2 turns worth of food to a worker ever again.
Once you get Bronze Working, you can really ramp up exponential worker production, building a military normally and switching to worker production on a turn when chopping has finished. Two chops and two turns of worker production shold be plenty. Then use the new workers to do even more chopping, and whip a couple of workers too while you're at it. That way, you're using almost entirely hammers to build your workers and you're really getting a nice bonus. And it is impossible to overstate the benefit of having plenty of workers in the early game. Cities are improved better, connected better, more forests are chopped giving more production, etc etc.

The second, and perhaps most important, part of the trait is that it lets you get new cities up to speed faster than anyone else. The first aspect of this is that you've always got a couple of workers to spare to start improving and chopping as soon as it's founded. And the second is that a half-price granary is an awesome, awesome thing - easily rivalling the courthouse for best half-price building in the game. Three chops will give you a granary and a monument, or you can whip it in as soon as you reach size 2. The sooner it's in, the sooner you accumulate food in it, and the city grows that much faster. So more population working more squares that your extra workers have improved, or just more whipping to get the rest of your infrastructure in even faster.
When you consider how long it normally takes to get a new city onto its feet, you realise just how powerful this is.

Other things:
More health+more workers lets you more happily expand into jungle, which will more quickly turn into prime real estate.

Cheap harbours are awesome. Trade routes can be massive in this game, and coastal commerce cities tend to struggle more with production anyway. You now get a head start on getting those customs houses in, too. Also, free health!

Extra health is also very nice, saving you from building expensive aqueducts, and it really comes into its own in the industrial age when cities are suddenly choking to death on their own waste.

So yeah, I like Expansive. If you push it hard at the start, you can net yourself a massive advantage that lasts the whole game. It also works better with some leaders than others; it's beautiful with Shaka, Pacal and Suryavarman.

 

[Horace]

I agree.

If I get a good start I think I generally win the game. Thats why I think Expansive is a really good trait. I also enjoy using Charismatic leaders for the same reasons.

 

[Tarew]

The games I've played so far have nearly always been with an Expansive leader and quite a few of them I've won on Noble and Prince difficulties. When I don't play with Expansive leaders, unhealthiness becomes a serious thing to deal with. From what I heard this is even more so the case on higher difficulty levels. The increased worker production is nice but not the main attraction.
Faster Granaries are also very nice so yeah this is probably an underrated trait (wouldn't know really as I've always rated it highly).

 

[magicalsushi]

you can expand faster then an Imp Civ which was a little strange.

Erm...it's strange that a trait called "expansive" lets you expand quickly?

 

[kniteowl]

Erm...it's strange that a trait called "expansive" lets you expand quickly?

lol no the fact that the production bonus to workers allows you to expand faster then a production bonus to settlers.

 

[Roxlimn]

Expansive is an awesome trait. Whenever I bump up a level, I almost always try out the "easy" leaders first, invariably the ones with either Expansive or Financial.

Why do I think that Expansive is an awesome trait?

Because Granaries don't rival Courthouses for the best half-price buildings in the game. They ARE the best half-price buildings in the game.

With Slavery, there is literally no city in which you don't want a Granary. You want those Granaries in there ASAP. The only reason you might have for not prioritizing it would be because the city is too small and you need Walls, Barracks, or Monuments inside of them first. But whatever the sequence, even in military cities, you eventually build them, and the half price off means you build them sooner rather than later, which means that your cities grow bigger, faster.

As an expansive Civ, you can really take advantage of Civics like Hereditary Rule and Representation. Bust off the happy cap and watch your population skyrocket! In many ways, the Expansive trait should be renamed the "Frisky" trait.

But what would you do with all that extra population building so fast? Won't they run out of improved tiles to work? Enter the Worker bonus. As Polycrates says, it normally takes you quite a long time to get a City on its feet producing rather than draining your coffers. If you Civ is Frisky, er, Expansive, your cities come online faster, and they get to your happy cap faster every time you bust it up.

Mehmed of the Ottomans is perhaps the poster boy for this "bigger, faster, stronger" attitude. His Hammams get you +2 Happy Faces aside from the Health bonus as he's also Expansive. You'll be surprised how early in the game you can get to size 20 cities.

Suryavarman II of the Khmer is an interesting take on the Expansive theme. He doesn't get more happies, but he does get, essentially, a free Monument for being Creative, so you can get to work on that half-priced Granary right away. Once you get the Baray, you get one food extra, just to speed up your city growth in that middle phase when it begins to slow. Fast, fast growth.


I don't support this push for the +3 health bonus because of two things. First is, the third health isn't as important as the first two, because until your city gets that bad, it's not going to matter. Thus, each extra health bonus on the trait is worth less than the previous. Losing the last point isn't that much of a nerf. Second, I think that it's a tad unfair for Expansives to get a late game bonus from not having to run Environmentalism to get a pollution-free Industrial Age. The +2 health is really big enough.

 

[Frostyboy]

It all depends on the scenario of course. Cheap granaries are great and that cheap worker in the beginning of the game also feels great. In Sea-maps the cheap harbor makes earlier up for fresh-water access, and +2 health is always great. Still this is not the trait I have the warmest feeling for.

 

[Legal_My_Deagle]

Oh ya, I forgot about Expansive leaders and jungles.

I love it when you are land grabbing as an Expansive leader, and nobody wants to settle those jungle cities because they are so unhealthy and expensive to maintain when they don't give anything back until later in the game. Expansive leaders don't have to worry so much about this, and can make use of these cities much much sooner....which translates in to the fact that you can steal more of these cities, and later in the game when these become extremely benefitial cities to have, you were the one who was able to settle them.

 

[aronnax]

It used to be better. However, the expansive trait is a wonderful trait. Though I wont pick it as my all time favourite but its a good trait to pick for those stuck in the jungle.

 

[bardolph]

Once I get Hereditary Rule, limits my city size more than .

Expansive is a great boon in this situation.

 

[lutzj]

Brainstorm: An expansive Huayna Capac would pwn: half-price terraces!!!