Japanese UHV....the easiest?

Seafroggys

Chieftain
Joined
Nov 17, 2006
Messages
49
So I just beat the Japanese UHV today, and it was by far the easiest one I've ever tried. Built 4 cities on the island, conquered Seoul as soon as it popped up with the 2 swordsmen you start out with. Gun straight for Civil Service. Put a ton of Samauri and Catapults in Korea. About 1360 or so, declared war on China. Now I'm only in contact with Mongolia, China, and India at this point, and China and India have been well ahead of me the entire game. China and India hate each other, so I get India (whose my ally, we share Hinduism) to go to war, and Mongolia goes to war naturally, then I go to war, I take most of China, and Mongolia takes a few cities which cause their collapse. My gains skyrocket me way ahead of India, so at 1500 I was 1st in Score (I learned at the end that Arabia was barely behind me at that time, but I did not have contact). The rest of the game was cake. Didn't ever have to go to war, and with Korea and China firmly in my grasp, didn't have to worry at all about foreign culture. Hell, the 3 Congresses that I had before the 1850 win, I got the 3 largest Mongolian cities with no issue, including their capital?!!!!

Anybody else agree that Japan is one of the easiest to play?
 
Nah, you can make the mistake of settling the Pacific Islands playing Japan as I did for the first time. Whereas with Egypt building the wonders pretty much GUARANTEE you 500 culture so 2/3 objects can be completed very easily, then it's building a Great Artist and there you go. I completed Egypt on my first ever game playing the mod itself. Got Greece on my first try too. Both are easier than Japan.
 
I've been trying this one recently and still can't seem to get enough points. In my first recent attempt I went for optics to go trade techs with europe and circumnav, and then decided to take advantage of the conquerers event, but that was a huge mistake as my maintenance skyrocketed. The next couple times I ended up conquering korea and china, but still couldn't contend with india, rome and france, who were all a good hundred points or so ahead of me. On my last one I think I may have been close, but I hadn't made contact with europe yet so I can't be sure, but I didn't get enough defenders in Fuzhou after an amphibious invasion and china took it back, which failed me on the second condition.

What do you do if the barbs end up razing half of china?
 
Wow, 4 cities on that tiny little Island of Japan? As far as I can tell there's only room for 2 good cities. The north side doesn't even seem worth over-extending myself to build a city there... at least not early on. 2 cities can tap all but one of the resources. Maybe my desire to keep all fat crosses from overlapping is a bit irrational?

And you wait until 1300's to attack China? Didn't they have lots of Co-Ko-Nu's and Longbowmen by then? I haven't actually won with Japan yet (very close once), but I've been trying to start my assault on China by 1000 just because I fear my Samurais becoming obsolete. Maybe I should be waiting to make sure I'm developed enough to support the new cities of China. Hmm...

-yarnosh
 
Considering RFC specifically allows you to build cities closer together then the regular game, I'd say that only building cities so they each have the big fat cross to themselves is irrational. ;)

It's actually worse then that, considering you have to deal with plague, and 2 cities on Japan get hit a lot worse then 4 cities. Plus there's so many other reasons why more is better.
 
Considering RFC specifically allows you to build cities closer together then the regular game, I'd say that only building cities so they each have the big fat cross to themselves is irrational. ;)

In what way does RFC allow you to build closer together? Do you mean because the resources are more dense? You you build on top of resource in order to fit 4 cities?

But perhaps this has something to do with my stability problems. Might my civ be more stable with more cities on the same land?

It's actually worse then that, considering you have to deal with plague, and 2 cities on Japan get hit a lot worse then 4 cities. Plus there's so many other reasons why more is better.

Wait, I thought more cities was BAD because of economic penalties. Or are you just talking about Japan "mainland" specifically?

Anyway, the plague hasn't been much of a problem for me in w/ Japan so far because it is so isolated. I've been spared more times than I've been hit.

-yarnosh
 
In what way does RFC allow you to build closer together? Do you mean because the resources are more dense? You you build on top of resource in order to fit 4 cities?

In RFC the 2 tiles limit between cities doesn't exist.
 
> But perhaps this has something to do with my stability problems. Might my civ be more stable with more cities on the same land?

There's a stability increase each time you get a city (2 points) or build a courthouse or jail (1 point each, with fine print). The penalty for total number of cities is much smaller than 4 points per city. A stability level is 20 points. Without Commonwealth, there's a penalty when your total economy doesn't grow. With Republic or Bureaucracy, there's a penalty if you have more than a few cities total. Read Harrier's stability guide on "Rhye's of Wiki".
 
> But perhaps this has something to do with my stability problems. Might my civ be more stable with more cities on the same land?

There's a stability increase each time you get a city (2 points) or build a courthouse or jail (1 point each, with fine print). The penalty for total number of cities is much smaller than 4 points per city. A stability level is 20 points. Without Commonwealth, there's a penalty when your total economy doesn't grow. With Republic or Bureaucracy, there's a penalty if you have more than a few cities total. Read Harrier's stability guide on "Rhye's of Wiki".

I did read the guide, but it was just so vague on specific values and so bloody complicated.

Is a possible solution to just cram a bunch of cities in China and get those Jails and Courthouses? Maybe develop the pacific islands? Then sacrafice some of the added stability to get better civics? Is it better to go for two turns of anarchy in a row vs. two separate civic changes?

-matthew
 
You might want to look at Stability.py. Even if you can't read code, search for example "jail" and you might find something worthwhile.

Cram cities with Jails and Courthouses? Maybe. ;) Denser cities will stagnate economically sooner than sparser ones, of course. But with Commonwealth, I think it might be effective.

Developing the Pacific islands might get more resources and is a way to keep your economy growing if you don't want to adopt Commonwealth.

The only civics strategy I've really tried is to keep civics changes to a bare minimum and to choose them for maximum stability - one or two switches down each column, ever. It doesn't seem like a very flexible system. But I might not understand it that well.
 
I gave Japan a test ride in BtS yesterday and I was pleased. Like many I HATE stability because it is never explained even the threads here and the wiki make no sense. I guess I'll just have to figure out how to game the system which is what all the more experienced people have done I'm sure.

As for my thoughts, I thought the Japanese were VERY strong. Island nations are really benefited by this mod I would imagine.

I have spent most of my turns at Shaky, but I have my island occupied with four cities (see below) and took Seoul. I have taken Gangzhou on the Chinese mainland three times and three times it has revolted so I'm just going to turtle until 1850 because nobody is going to be coming for me.

As for four cities on the island.

Wow, 4 cities on that tiny little Island of Japan? As far as I can tell there's only room for 2 good cities. The north side doesn't even seem worth over-extending myself to build a city there... at least not early on. 2 cities can tap all but one of the resources. Maybe my desire to keep all fat crosses from overlapping is a bit irrational?

You HAVE to overlap fat crosses in this one. It is a good skill to learn on micromanagement so you know which city needs what tile.

For Japan I plop down the first city at the spawn point (Kyoto). I move one settler to the hills to the SW and one SE and NE towards the spot north of the river tile.

I put the southern settler between the spice and gold resources (Nagasaki) and the northeast settler on the north side of the river (Tokyo).

I also send one swordsman north to explore the rest of the island and fort the other in my capitol (the archers go with the settlers).

When I return to stable (next time I play not this last game where I rushed this guy out) and build a few improvements in my cities, I will make another settler and put him just NW of the Dye resource in the north. This will make for four cities with good locations. I only have keep my capitol from two squares on the Nagasaki side (an ocean tile and windmilled hill SW of Kyoto) since Nagasaki has a food deficiency), and the eastern rice tile and the one north of it since Kyoto has a food surplus.

What I don't understand about the challenges of the Japanese civ (and really this is for the entire mod) is what to do about civics.

Should I wait for a golden age before switching? Part of how I won (I'm in the mid 1700's now and each of my cities could take a nuke hit .... except Nagasaki) was I switched my civics at the start to pick up hereditary rule and slavery and just kept popping my population which grew so fast. I put more units in the cities to keep happiness up and by 1500 was almost 500 points ahead of any other civ (one mistake I made was to sail around and meet EVERYBODY which means I took the "you know too many names" hit on whatever category).

This, however, paired with the swaps to various civics throughout before I knew about the PERMANENT penalty you face when you switch civics. Means I win the game, but have to sit on shaky? Horse hockey if you ask me. Especially with Nationhood when it is known that I'm the biggest kid on the block, my nation should be more stable.

Anyway, I enjoyed the mod and being a Marathon player I was very worried about the score UHV criteria, but through fast improvement of my lands as well as general exploring (to meet far flung civs with different techs) I was able to put a stranglehold on the tech lead which typically leads to point victories.
 
Yeah, I played it after failing as Rome, and I'd say it's the easiest as well. I just stayed isolationist, never leaving Japan, and built some wonders for points.
However, I had a prominent civil war problem. I don't know if this was scripted or because of instability (frankly it should be scripted if it isn't, the warring states period was an important time) but that was the only obstacle. And, even when I didn't have a standing army and 3 of my cities broke off, it wasn't too hard to take them back. Just keep military units in your capital, and don't defend anything else more than you need to.
 
I tend to agree that its one of the easiest but I also find Greece and now the Netherlands extremely easy.

India isn't too bad either once you master the religion rush. ;)

Thing is though with Japan its the most satisfying (after India) to play to the end with after getting the UHV. At least IMHO.
 
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