Need help with Tech Tree

[Bobweiser]

Yay my first post!

Ive owned Civ3 for years, just now I have become recently addicted to it (as I am sure you all are).

I have been browsing this site for a few days, figured it was time to pony up and register

In your opinions, what is the most optimal way to attack the tech tree?

I know it depends on your goal (cultural, military, space race, etc) but perhaps there is somewhere someone can point me to as a good source of info regarding the tech tree to achieve that goal.

Thanks guys! Love the forums!

 

[Aabraxan]

Welcome to CFC, Bobweiser.

As a general rule, research left to right, rather than top to bottom (or vice versa). Obviously, which branches you climb will vary according to your playstyle, chosen victory condition, difficulty level, etc. But going left to right increases your odds of getting monopoly techs, which can then be traded around.

 

[timerover51]

Welcome to the forums, Bobweiser.

There seems to be a fair number of different approaches that players use with respect to the tech tree. One that appears to be very popular is called the Republic slingshot, where you focus on researching to Philosophy, which gives you a free tech, which is then used on Republic. That is heavily used in comments on the forums.

Since I play Seafaring on archipelago and continent maps, I research Iron Working first to check on Iron, and then head straight for Mapmaking, to get galleys and get serious about exploring. Then pick up the Wheel to see about horses. I also am busily going after goody huts, which normally nets me a few free techs, Ceremonial Burial seems to be the most common there. Once I have Mapmaking, I head for Monarchy as my preferred government, then pick up the rest of the techs. This is pretty much the approach I use whether or not I am playing the standard game or one of my mods. Note: If I do not have iron or horses nearby in the standard game, my policy is to quit without saving and restart. That is why I check Iron and then the Wheel.

If you find that you have Elephants/Ivory nearby, then heading for Mathematics is a good idea, as those Ancient Cavalry are very useful to have around. If you have Ironworking, then Mathematics sets you up nicely for Construction, if you have lots of neighbors near by. Good Fortresses make for good neighbors in my view.

Once you get past the Ancient Age, then your winning objective should govern your choices. If military, you will want to research the lower half of the tech tree left to right first. If you are going for cultural, then the upper half of the tech tree left to right. If you are going for the space race, then you pretty much run the middle. This is for the Medieval Age. If you are Seafaring, then Astronomy is a high priority.

In the Industrial Age, you want to go Steam Power>Electricity>Replaceable Parts to speed up your workers, then Scientific Method for the free techs. Nationalism gives you rifleman if you do not have Saltpeter, Replaceable Parts gets you Artillery and Guerillas which also have no resource requirement. Then you need Industrialization, for coal plant and factory. After that, depends on how you are planning to win. You can bias towards science in the lower half of the tree or military in the middle to upper half.

In Modern Times, Fission is first if you are going for a Diplomatic victory. For Space Race, you focus on getting those techs you need for the Space Ship first and then decide on the rest. If going for a military win, Rocketry comes first, Fission next, and then run the techs for advanced weaponry.

Hope this is of help to you. Probably the major factor in using the tech tree is deciding how you plan on winning as early as possible, and then basing your decisions on that. Just remember however, that the "best laid plans o' mice and men oft gang agly." (Bobby Burns)

 

[Spoonwood]

I think you would do well to take timerover51's comments here with a grain of salt. He plays mostly modded games. On top of that, and more importantly, he doesn't really like or seem to know the trading system.

Do you want a faster tech pace or a slower tech pace? If you do play with barbarians on, popping goody huts for techs works as a good idea for a faster tech pace. In general, if you want a faster tech pace do NOT research what you expect the AI will research for you, and research what the AI won't research for you. Exceptions to this come for wonders you really want to build perhaps, resources you want, or units you want. If you want a slower tech pace, research the same techs the AI does and don't trade for tech/trade your techs away all that much. To get an idea on what the AI might or might not research go here http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=123345

 

[Bobweiser]

Awesome guys, thanks for your input. I know it takes a lot of time to respond to these types of ambiguous questions.


I believe what you guys are trying to say, is of course to factor in how you need to win (conquest, diplomacy, etc.) but also the availability of resources and your type of civ also play huge roles.

As for breaking the tech tree into thirds, ill definitely have to look at that.

So timerover, you actually make the switch from Republic to Monarchy? Im assuming thats because you want to reduce war weariness, which is currently DECIMATING my current game.

Give peace a chance, my ass.

 

[lordmacroer]

Yea monarchy is definatly more of a war oriented government, considering the reduced war werriness and extra unit support. Maybe theoreticly you could make the case that a republic government makes up for the unit support and lower war werriness with its extra gold and lower corruption, but all in all a republic government is just not built for extensive war and a monarchy is.

 

[timerover51]

I think you would do well to take timerover51's comments here with a grain of salt. He plays mostly modded games. On top of that, and more importantly, he doesn't really like or seem to know the trading system.

The guy is asking for help in navigating the tech tree. I do not see that whether or not I play on modded games effects how you approach research. Depending on the level, he may or may not have success in trading for techs, but he needs to lay out what techs have the highest priority, what are nice to have and what are the ones that he does not worry about. He still needs to know what he should be researching while waiting for the AI to furnish him something.

Bobweiser, I do not switch from Republic to Monarchy. I was simply indicating one of the more popular approaches to attacking the tech tree. I do a lot of testing of modified unit combat values, so I have modified Monarchy to be somewhat of a Republic or Democracy with no war weariness, high worker productivity, minimal corruption, and plenty of free units. Since I play on huge, 160 X 160, or larger archipelago or continent maps, I normally find myself in a slow grinding war against the AI. Therefore, a modified Monarchy works best for what I do.

For a solitaire Space Race game that I am setting up, i.e. no AI opponents, just seeing if I can launch prior to 2050, I suspect that I will use Republic and Democracy, as I do not anticipate fighting any wars, and will need the commerce bonus. It is a matter of tailoring the government type you are using to your objectives in the game. For a military win, Monarchy might work better, for a non-military win Republic or Democracy might be preferred.

 

[Spoonwood]

The guy is asking for help in navigating the tech tree. I do not see that whether or not I play on modded games effects how you approach research.

Timerover51,

Do you trade for tech with the AIs? Do you *plan* to trade for tech and NOT research specific techs since you know you can trade for them? From your comments in general this comes as a "no". Consequently, you certainly don't very well know how to navigate the tech tree in an epic game.

I do a lot of testing of modified unit combat values, so I have modified Monarchy to be somewhat of a Republic or Democracy with no war weariness, high worker productivity, minimal corruption, and plenty of free units.

This and your modding of the Great Library and other improvements *affects* how anyone wants to navigate the tech tree. I simply don't know how you fail to see this. Seriously, if I put an improvement called an "iron foundry" available with Iron Working, that works like a factory for 80 shields that *will* affect how one wants to navigate the tech tree. So will any other modding of improvements or technology. And you've made it clear that you do this, so your experience from your modded games of how to navigate the tech tree simply doesn't apply *for the epic game*. Got it?

As perhaps a better example, how often do you research Printing Press timerover51? In the epic game researching it usually works out well, since you can trade with it quite easily. But if I didn't plan to trade it, in a non-20k game, I probably wouldn't research it all that much. As an even better example let's say I put a non-polluting 120 shield factory available with Ironclads, Economics, Navigation, or Amphibious War. Think I'd want to research differently then??? You'd better hope so.

 

[timerover51]

First, I have not added any buildings to the game as yet, and those that I will add will be strictly for the WW 2 scenario, mainly to offset the US lack of cities compared with the Japanese. I have modified the Wonders, but that fact does not really effect how I research the Tech Tree. When I played the epic game maps, I first went for Ironworking to find out if I had any Iron and to get the Swordsman. No iron reasonably close by, I dump the game (personal preference). On a modified map, I know that I will have iron, but still go for it to get the Swordsman. I prefer them over Warriors for explorers, when not playing Expansionist Civilizations. Being Seafaring, I head for Mapmaking next, for the galley and Great Lighthouse, not because of any changes I have made to it. After that, Monarchy. I prefer that to Republic, being a monarchist in some respects. I did direct Bobweiser to the Republic slingshot as an alternative. Elephants nearby, I will adjust that and get the Statue of Zeus. Nice to have, not vital. I will admit to using Accelerated Production, as the pace of the standard/epic game at time is somewhat glacial.

For tech trading to work, you need three things. First, AI at, near, or above your tech level. Second, contact with them. Third, a reasonable basis for a trade, i.e. equivalent technologies, coin, or resources. If I play the standard game, I play on huge water maps, with less that the maximum number of AI. For most if not all of the Ancient Age, I have no contact with any AI. No contact, no trading. By the time I am out of the Ancient Age, I normally have the tech lead, and work on keeping it.

As for the printing press, I build that when I have a city that would benefit from the boost of Shakespeare's Theater, and I am willing to deal with the accompanying pollution. Researching the printing press for possible trade means that I am not researching something like Astronomy or Magnetism or Navigation, that I really need, being a Seafaring civilization. Having looked through the civilizations and their preferred government types, I can see that the Printing Press would be a good thing to have for trade. But researching it means not researching something else. Or hoping that the AI that I do have contact with happen to research the right tech that I want, and being able to trade for it. I simply do not want to be dependent for advancement on what the AI happens to research.

As for Ironclads, now that they are a separate tech to research, if I had to stay with their original combat rating and upgrade, I probably would not research them at all. The combat rating in the game is ludicrously low, and after having a few sunk by galleys in their original form, I quit building them.

Having spent some time studying the editor and seeing the advantages the AI has at the higher levels, I can see why the AI could easily achieve a higher tech level than the human player. At that point, tech trading is a viable option, more of a matter of survival for the human player to be more precise. Probably playing on that level would not fit my style of play at all. The style of play that I suspect that I would have to use is not one that I would find very enjoyable, based on comments and screen shots on the forum.

At lower levels, if you are playing a One City or Limited Number of City challenge, then tech trading is a must. While playing the 31 City State scenario, I did engage in tech trading out of necessity to start with. However, having 5 civilizations on a small island, all in immediate contact with each other does help. Once I took over my island and finally got in contact with the other ones, I discovered that I had the tech edge, and trading became somewhat one-sided. My techs for their maps and gold. Once I had two islands, and 10 cities doing research, it turned into a runaway for me. That was a special case, I would admit.

Regardless of whether I modify the game or not, my approach to research is going to be the same.

1. What is my starting position, what is my civilization, what type of victory am I aiming for, what are my civilization's traits and starting techs?

2. What techs do I need right away, that I wish to research myself to make sure that I have them?

3. Which techs will give me the most benefit based on my starting position? Having 3 or 4 luxuries nearby would make Currency very valuable for the marketplaces.

4. Which techs fall in the nice to have category, but are not immediately useful? Horseback Riding when you do not have horses is a good example. Mapmaking for a landlocked Pangaea map could be another.

5. What government type am I immediately shooting for? Monarchy takes longer to get to than Republic, so getting techs for Monarchy via trade or goody huts is a big plus.

Once those questions are answered, I lay out my research pattern for the Ancient Age, and then for each succeeding Age. At the start of each Age, I lay out my research path for the entire age, identifying which techs are crucial, which techs are nice to have, and which techs are ignored for me to get from where I am at to where I wish to go. That framework helps in determining what decisions to make when changes occur. No coal for railroads, we have a problem. Change research tree and head for Refining, maybe we have oil.

However, you need to have a pattern in mind for what you wish to do. That is going to hold true regardless of what level you are playing at or what modifications have been made to the game.

 

[Spoonwood]

I have modified the Wonders, but that fact does not really effect how I research the Tech Tree.

Well it certainly does affect gameplay and it can affect what works as best.

I will admit to using Accelerated Production, as the pace of the standard/epic game at time is somewhat glacial.

This definitely affects your research pace. If you trade for technology, a different research pace affects what you research, because you have different sorts of trading opportunities.

For tech trading to work, you need three things. First, AI at, near, or above your tech level.

No, you don't. In the middle ages of the epic game, you can concentrate on the top of the tree and trade for the lower half. You can have a significant tech lead and still trade for some techs.

Third, a reasonable basis for a trade, i.e. equivalent technologies, coin, or resources.

No, you don't. You just need to have enough gold or tech to trade for their techs. You don't need to do so "reasonably". You can trade your more expensive techs for their cheaper technologies. You can also sell your tech for gpt and way undersell your tech.

But researching it means not researching something else. Or hoping that the AI that I do have contact with happen to research the right tech that I want, and being able to trade for it. I simply do not want to be dependent for advancement on what the AI happens to research.

Someone who researches Printing Press and trades it, really doesn't work as "dependent" on the AIs. Have you read about n-fers? Monopoly techs? In a recent game I got beat to Education by the AIs, and purchased it for some 10 gold. Then I researched Printing Press, since I wanted Astronomy and knew I would lag behind the AIs tech pace. I had pre-built Copernicus's Observatory with The Sistine Chapel. A while after I learned Printing Press, Astronomy showed up. I then traded away Printing Press for Astronomy and some gold. Then I traded Printing Press away for Invention with someone else. I swapped my pre-build from The Sistine Chapel and finished off Copernicus's Observatory the next turn. A turn or three later I swapped Printing Press and Astronomy for a peace treaty and Gunpowder. Then I learned Banking a few turns later and sold it to the AIs for gpt. Printing Press netted my 3 techs, and I didn't even do it on the same turn. Printing Press also costs *less* than Astronomy... and I think it costs less than Invention and Gunpowder also. In effect, I reserached 3 techs through Printing Press. If I hadn't have researched Printing Press and had gone for Astronomy instead, almost surely an AI would have beaten me to it, and I would have had trouble obtaining the other techs.

You missed the point about Ironclads... I didn't talk about regular Ironclads... I talked about a technology called "Ironclads" which had an extra improvement available with it.

No coal for railroads, we have a problem.

TRADE FOR IT! Or go out and take territory for it. Any pattern you have in mind needs adapated to what the AIs do.

 

[timerover51]

With respect to trading, I have generated a fair number of maps in the editor, and counted the number of strategic resources on each size map. Except for Uranium, which is scarcer, each map normally has as many sources of each strategic resources as the maximum number of civilizations for that size map, with sometimes one or two extra. I did not count luxuries, but because of the resource generator clustering those, a civilization is likely to have surplus luxuries. Therefore is order to trade for a resource, either there must be a resource surplus over the number of civilizations present, which as a tentative assessment occurs half of the time, or a civilization has located and connected up to more than one supply of a resource, meaning that another civ is missing that resource. Also, trade over sea squares requries Astronomy, and trade over ocean squares requires Magnetism. Fortunately, that does not apply to trade within your own empire. All those facts serve to limit trade. Evidently, you have been fortunate in your games.

The coal example was not meant to indicate that I would stop looking for it, or try to capture it if possible. It was meant to indicate that if I did not immediately have coal, I would modify my research path to head for oil faster than I would normally do in order to at least have the possiblily of modern units. Modern naval units require only oil, as do the initial air units. With modern units, I have a greater likelyhood of obtaining coal for railroads.

Mr. Levelhozc, I understand that you view tech and resource trading as the only way to go in the game, and that you will beat over the head in endless posts anyone who does not do that. I CHOOSE NOT TO PLAY THAT WAY. I understand how in theory the system works, however, my experiece does not coincide with what you describe. I do regularly contact the AI, if only to get world maps and see what is happening elsewhere. Occasionally, they will have excess luxuries, sometimes even some gold. I think that I can count on the fingers of one hand, with one or two left over, when one of them has excess resources. That is on an unmodified epic game map. When playing the WW2 in the Pacific scenario, as the British, I tried to trade for Amphibious War from the Americans. Remember, in theory, the game is a locked alliance, with Britain, the US, the Netherlands, and China all working together to beat Japan. For the Amphibious War tech, the American AI demanded every tech that I had, and all the gold that was in my treasury. Not exactly the sweetness and light that you describe.

To combat that, I tried playing the game on Hotseat, playing the British, US, and Netherlands (had to unlock the scenario and set the Netherlands to be played by the human player to do that), so that I could research and trade techs on more favorable terms. I then discovered that the game was not displaying the diplomatic communication between the Allies. I am not sure if that is a bug in the game, or a deliberate setup to keep players from doing what I was doing. Again, not the sweetness and light that you describe.

Now, I will quit posting on any board where question occur involving the epic game. I trust that will make you happy. As for this matter, I consider it closed.

 

[Spoonwood]

Except for Uranium, which is scarcer, each map normally has as many sources of each strategic resources as the maximum number of civilizations for that size map, with sometimes one or two extra.

Then you work out alright... if you miss one another AI has one. If you miss one and another AI misses one, some AI might have two extra resources. People win OCC space games... how do you think they get aluminum, uranium, AND rubber?

Therefore is order to trade for a resource, either there must be a resource surplus over the number of civilizations present...

No. You missing a resource implies someone else either does or can have an extra resource if number of tribes=number of resources. The AI has a policy of settling all possible land by the end of the middle ages usually, even on archipelago maps. If you have an RoP signed with them, you can fairly easily road up their land for the extra resources and trade for it.

Also, trade over sea squares requries Astronomy, and trade over ocean squares requires Magnetism.

Magnetism OR Navigation. You don't need horses or saltpeter to win builder style for sure... they have a very limited use. You don't have a real use for iron builder style until the industrial age... *after* you have Magnetism. If you lack luxuries (on an archipelago or contintents map) just use the luxury slider or build temples, cathedrals, and for pete's sake even a coloseuum. On a pangea map you won't have as much of a problem.

With modern units, I have a greater likelyhood of obtaining coal for railroads.

By that time the AI should almost certainly have coal available for you to trade for... or you've played a game WAY below your skill level if they simply don't have Steam Power when you have Flight or Motorized Transportation.

Mr. Levelhozc, I understand that you view tech and resource trading as the only way to go in the game, and that you will beat over the head in endless posts anyone who does not do that.

No, I don't view such as the only way to play. I don't know how many games I've won where I haven't traded a single tech. But, *in the epic game* that such has GREAT uses can't get stated too strongly. Not trading tech might help slow down the tech pace... good for a 20k game. Not trading for resources might mean you don't engage in breaking deals if you want to wack that AI within those 20 turns. But under many circumstances trading tech and resources/luxuries has great utility in the epic game.

I understand how in theory the system works, however, my experiece does not coincide with what you describe.

WHAT EXPERIENCE? You've indicated that you played the epic game maybe once or twice. Care to post a save and allow me to test and see if I can actually get resources/luxuries at some point along the way? If you go here http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=281179 you can see that I had a "rubber" problem from somewhere around 1550 to 1764, in a space-race game. Problem, yes? But did it get resolved? Yes. One thing I learned from that game... not mentioned in my notes, consists of the fact that you almost surely want to trade for that extra resource as soon as you can, otherwise the AI might trade it away to someone else.

When playing the WW2 in the Pacific scenario, as the British, I tried to trade for Amphibious War from the Americans.

That IS a mod (scenario if you want to get precise). That IS NOT the epic game. An epic game *starts* at 4000 B.C.(E.) and there exist no rule modifications like that.