New Trade Values (post-patch)

[Browd]

Assuming Firaxis won't further rebalance the gold trade values in the beta patch before releasing the final patch, I decided to explore the new trade values for luxuries and strategics. We all grew familiar with the G&K values (when selling luxuries to the AI, the AI would pay 240 gold, or 209 gold + 1 gpt, or 177 gold +2 gpt, etc.). These values were rebalanced in BNW, and the beta patch further tinkers with these values.

The patch notes specifically say "Deal AI: Slight increase (about 7%) in the value the AI gives you in gold/gold-per-turn for things (this helped with getting them to always offer 1 GPT for Embassy)", but that isn't much help when you're in the trade screen.

Here is what I've found:

Note: All of this assumes a DOF with your trade partner, since you're limited to gpt for non-DOF partners, where the new highest price for Luxuries sold to the AI (Friendly price) is 7 gpt and for Strategics is 2 gpt.​

Luxuries Sold to AI (easy to remember, since gold is reduced by 33 for each added gpt, except for 6 gpt=>7 gpt, where the step down is 34 gold):

240 gold
207 gold + 1 gpt
174 gold + 2 gpt
141 gold + 3 gpt
108 gold + 4 gpt
75 gold + 5 gpt
42 gold + 6 gpt
8 gold + 7 gpt
-25 gold + 8 gpt (that is, you pay 25 gold + luxury in exchange for 8 gpt from AI--useful only if the AI has plenty of gpt, but no gold)​

Luxuries Bought from AI (more difficult to remember, since gold is reduced by 25.5 per turn, which is rounded down, so the actual decrease ping-pongs between 25 and 26 for each added gpt):

240 gold
215 gold + 1 gpt
189 gold + 2 gpt
164 gold + 3 gpt
138 gold + 4 gpt
113 gold + 5 gpt
87 gold + 6 gpt
62 gold + 7 gpt
36 gold + 8 gpt
11 gold + 9 gpt​

Strategics Sold to AI (simple 33 gold step down for each gpt):

45 gold
12 gold + 1 gpt
-21 gold + 2 gpt (pay 21 gold + strategic in exchange for 2 gpt from AI)​

Strategics Bought from AI (25.5 gold step down, rounded down, for each gpt):

45 gold
20 gold + 1 gpt
-6 gold + 2 gpt (AI pays 6 gold + strategic in exchange for 2 gpt from you)​

Note that the Luxuries/Strategics Bought from AI values correspond to the 25.5 loan-gold-for-gpt value. By that I mean you could take a 25 gold loan from the AI for 1 gpt, 51 gold for 2 gpt, etc.

 

[Binka]

Interesting, thanks!

 

[Gort]

Another tweak the AI could use in this area is to not buy luxuries or strategic resources when it doesn't need them. I know I wouldn't bother buying luxuries if I was sitting on 40 spare happiness, or horses when I don't intend to build any mounted units.

Would make the game harder, of course

 

[Smokeybear]

Another tweak the AI could use in this area is to not buy luxuries or strategic resources when it doesn't need them. I know I wouldn't bother buying luxuries if I was sitting on 40 spare happiness, or horses when I don't intend to build any mounted units.

Would make the game harder, of course

Big time. Especially if you are playing catch up against civs that don't 'need' anything from you. Way too hard, I'm sure. I'm betting if you tried it, you'd quickly find it ruins the game. Careful what you wish for.

 

[Gort]

I'm an Immortal player generally speaking - I don't think I'd die if I had to take an ego hit and turn the difficulty down to Emperor or King. I'm sure there are players out there who can routinely exploit the AIs weaknesses (such as trading for stuff it doesn't need) to win on Deity level.

The solution to the AI not needing anything from you would be to lower the rather insane happiness bonuses they get so they DO actually need to trade with a human player. It would also make Ideology unhappiness less of a "human player only" phenomenon. I won a culture victory the other day where only one other civ shared my ideology and everyone else was in civil resistance and revolutionary wave with happiness penalties in the twenties and thirties. None of the AI civs were in negative unhappiness due to their huge bonuses.

It would make the game a bit more newbie-friendly and intuitive, too. There's no real reason the AI would pay 7 GPT for a luxury, and outside of working backwards from what the AI offers for your luxuries, there's no in-game notice that says, "Suleiman has Copper - he'll trade it to you for 9 GPT" or "Boudicaa will pay you 7 GPT for your Spices - go and talk to her!"

I dunno, I guess I just feel that the end-game of AI design should have the AI playing the same game as you, as far as is possible, and this would be a step in that direction.

 

[KrikkitTwo]

Big time. Especially if you are playing catch up against civs that don't 'need' anything from you. Way too hard, I'm sure. I'm betting if you tried it, you'd quickly find it ruins the game. Careful what you wish for.

Well the solution would be to allow selling luxuries to CS.
That was the original idea... Major civ are there to win, minor civs are there for you to get goodies out of diplomacy.

 

[Gort]

That would be pretty cool. You could either sell the luxury for the usual amount, or give it to them for free for influence per turn.

 

[joncnunn]

Thanks; so while it's somewhat better than pre beta patch; it's still a worse case of you fail economics forever than Vanilla and G&K. (AI willing to pay 240 cash all up front but less than that in installments.)

 

[KrikkitTwo]

They should keep 1 gpt =25 gold

Lump sum gold on your side should be decreased in value.

So you offer them 30 gold or 1gpt... They consider either equal to 25 of their gold/ goods

 

[neilkaz]

OMG this idiocy still remains although not as severe. It is total nonsense that you get less overall GPT when the AI friend is paying some as GPT than a total lump sum.

Clearly it should be 210 G +30 GPT etc etc.

ROFL .. neilkaz ..

 

[TLHeart]

Only a friend or an idiot loans you money with no interest attached. China does not buy US dollars at face value, they get them at a discount. I like the new gold trading.

 

[Barathor]

Awesome! Thanks for breaking that all down, Browd.

- - - - - -

Also, GPT value between the player and AI has been a small annoyance of mine for a very long time, but at least it's gotten a bit better.

I'm not sure why the AI has to value its outgoing GPT so much (extra 40%).

A pretty clear comparison can bee seen with the 8gpt entries.

Over 30 turns, an AI will give you a total of 215g for your luxury.

Over 30 turns, an AI wants a total of 276g for its luxury. (36 + 8gpt makes sense since gpt is valued at only 85% of lump sum)

It would be nice if things were traded evenly between player and AI. Also, if a "cleaner" 80% was used to value GPT vs. lump sum, then 10gpt (300g) would equal a lump sum of 240g.

 

[flying_dug0ng]

Thanks for the breakdown. Is there a handy one for Epic/Marathon too?

 

[Lord Yanaek]

Another tweak the AI could use in this area is to not buy luxuries or strategic resources when it doesn't need them. I know I wouldn't bother buying luxuries if I was sitting on 40 spare happiness, or horses when I don't intend to build any mounted units.

Would make the game harder, of course

Well, as far as strategics are considered, i've seen AIs refuse to buy strats from me quite often. I tend to get improved horses pretty soon (like those 22 grassland horses in the early game). When i want to sell horses to AIs, even warmongers, they often refuse. I have to wait till later, probably when they start producing horsemen.
Likewise, don't even think about selling Iron in the late game.

Luxes is another issue, i guess the logic of the AI is more happiness always better, which is, to some extand, true. Also, if AIs were refusing luxes when they are not short on happiness, it would be almost impossible to sell those early on higher difficulties provided how much free happiness they get.

 

[Browd]

Thanks for the breakdown. Is there a handy one for Epic/Marathon too?

Sorry, I haven't invested the time that would be required to set up games that long to generate that data (also haven't done Quick).

But, if someone were to invest that time, I would be happy to update the OP with the info they generate (with prominent credit to the person doing that work).

 

[Horizons]

omg ... the first post in this thread is proof that you need to pore over spreadsheets in excruciating detail to be 'optimal' at this game. Where did the fun factor go? Some of you people work harder at this than I do when I am at work, and I'm getting paid to do that.

 

[Browd]

Well, guilty as charged, I guess. I actually play very few games to completion. These days, I mostly enjoy exploring how the game works.

 

[Gort]

omg ... the first post in this thread is proof that you need to pore over spreadsheets in excruciating detail to be 'optimal' at this game. Where did the fun factor go? Some of you people work harder at this than I do when I am at work, and I'm getting paid to do that.

It only takes one guy to do this research, then everyone knows about it. Plus, it's hardly difficult to go, "Ten gold for my spices? How about nine? How about eight? Oh, you'll take seven? Guess I'll remember that for the future!"

 

[Smokeybear]

It only takes one guy to do this research, then everyone knows about it. Plus, it's hardly difficult to go, "Ten gold for my spices? How about nine? How about eight? Oh, you'll take seven? Guess I'll remember that for the future!"

This is the part of the whole trading screen thing that gets old fast. Especially after 4000 hours or so... <sigh>. I would give my left huevo for a sensible trade screen where you could select the civ you wanted to try trading with, ask them with one click if they are interested in anything you have, and automatically have them make real offers for what they'll pay for what they want, and just click yes or no on the offers you want to make a deal on. The complete farce of how it works now, having to guess what they'll pay and manually type it into tiny little number boxes every single time for every single item with every single civ... is just farking riduculous. I'm quite tired of it. Like 3500 hours ago.

 

[Jaybe]

This is the part of the whole trading screen thing that gets old fast. Especially after 4000 hours or so... <sigh>.
... is just farking riduculous. I'm quite tired of it. Like 3500 hours ago.

Don't do it then. Drop down a level and don't offer those bleepin' trades any more. Your time is obviously more valuable to you than those trades (though I agree the input boxes are a bit ... tiny).

Having just passed the 4200 hour mark (isn't retirement great ), my ponderous playing is a leisurely Prince/large/marathon past-time, watching how things play out.

--
Just don't anyone threaten my sandbox, as Alex just did. If he hadn't threatened my dominating half-dozen cities, I wouldn't have taken 20 of his 25 cities.