(Question) Science Victory

[jma22tb]

I specifically tried a game last time to see if my Nationalist policy sequence could win a Science victory while staying tall, but I was nowhere close to getting the spaceship parts or even Apollo Project and I was tech leader by turn 415 (was playing standard 500 turns).

It seems like a Science Victory will need Progress, Piety, and Rationalism to get as much science as possible, maybe even a Science religion along with it.

What do you guys think on Science Victory?

 

[Funak]

I specifically tried a game last time to see if my Nationalist policy sequence could win a Science victory while staying tall, but I was nowhere close to getting the spaceship parts or even Apollo Project and I was tech leader by turn 415 (was playing standard 500 turns).

It seems like a Science Victory will need Progress, Piety, and Rationalism to get as much science as possible, maybe even a Science religion along with it.

What do you guys think on Science Victory?

How did you end up losing?


On topic, I haven't gone for Science Victory in like 2 years, so I don't know. Been in situations where I could certainly have done it however.

 

[IcyAngel]

Science, as a victory condition, benefits the most from going wide and prioritizing infrastructure.
In that sense Progress is a must-have.

What does Piety give you? A scientist spot in every city, minor but non-negligible flat yields and a bonus to internal trade routes. Nothing particularly fantastic for your goals, but the bonuses are always present - you don't have to do anything.
Patronage's issue is opportunity cost; one could receive tons of science from allying city-states, but the opportunity cost of constantly producing diplomats, working all your GD spots and so on is a bit high. If you're Greece, Austria or the likes, you could get away with it.
Aesthetics provides high flat science per city over the course of a game (through culture buildings), and a free great scientist, so in the end it probably evens out with Piety. If you rush Archaeology, access to Hidden sites can really help your culture and resisting ideology pressure/cultural victory.

I have legit never picked Industry, so I cannot help you on that.
Rationalism' policies aren't particularly helpful for a science victory, oddly enough; the only real boons are GS production and %10 science (growth to a lesser degree since the science changes). Exploration and its fantastic yields might help you more if most of your cities are coastal and you plan on doing some naval battling. You know what the easiest way of winning a science victory is? Crushing your opponents into the ground (or into the sea...).

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Perhaps you should remove the points victory? Assuming 500 turns is on Epic, I have never won a science victory by 500 turns.

On wide vs tall: I have rarely gotten away with playing tall science on Immortal or Deity. I'll get ahead on science for some time by prioritizing scientist spots, science buildings and so on, but when the AI with twice or thrice your number of cities eventually does too well... he'll catch up on technologies quick enough, sail ahead and you're doomed unless you attack him.

 

[jma22tb]

How did you end up losing?


On topic, I haven't gone for Science Victory in like 2 years, so I don't know. Been in situations where I could certainly have done it however.

Well I didn't lose. Once it was clear that I wasn't going to win by Science, I just conquered the entire continent I was on b/c I was so far ahead of everyone.

 

[jma22tb]

Science, as a victory condition, benefits the most from going wide and prioritizing infrastructure.
In that sense Progress is a must-have.

What does Piety give you? A scientist spot in every city, minor but non-negligible flat yields and a bonus to internal trade routes. Nothing particularly fantastic for your goals, but the bonuses are always present - you don't have to do anything.
Patronage's issue is opportunity cost; one could receive tons of science from allying city-states, but the opportunity cost of constantly producing diplomats, working all your GD spots and so on is a bit high. If you're Greece, Austria or the likes, you could get away with it.
Aesthetics provides high flat science per city over the course of a game (through culture buildings), and a free great scientist, so in the end it probably evens out with Piety. If you rush Archaeology, access to Hidden sites can really help your culture and resisting ideology pressure/cultural victory.

I have legit never picked Industry, so I cannot help you on that.
Rationalism' policies aren't particularly helpful for a science victory, oddly enough; the only real boons are GS production and %10 science (growth to a lesser degree since the science changes). Exploration and its fantastic yields might help you more if most of your cities are coastal and you plan on doing some naval battling. You know what the easiest way of winning a science victory is? Crushing your opponents into the ground (or into the sea...).

-------------

Perhaps you should remove the points victory? Assuming 500 turns is on Epic, I have never won a science victory by 500 turns.

On wide vs tall: I have rarely gotten away with playing tall science on Immortal or Deity. I'll get ahead on science for some time by prioritizing scientist spots, science buildings and so on, but when the AI with twice or thrice your number of cities eventually does too well... he'll catch up on technologies quick enough, sail ahead and you're doomed unless you attack him.

Very helpful post.

Yeah I'm thinking about just turning off the Time victory entirely, just so there's no limitation to my playstyle based on # of turns.

To answer your question on going Tall, I go to war almost the entire game, but do so without attempting to take any of an opponents' cities. They can keep them - I'll just raze every improvement, disconnect every road, and destroy all their units xD.

I also aim to liberate any conquered civs or CS's because it keeps everyone else weak and funnels them toward the liberated civ, who I give some techs and defend while they rebuild.

 

[skepticon]

I think puppeted cities have such bad build orders that unless you feed them production with your trade routes you're never going to get the return out of them that you'd want to see for a puppet city, let alone an annexed one.

 

[tu_79]

I've recently tried a scientific victory with Russia and lost in turn 500, just for points. Standard pace, difficulty 4, single continent. I did my best to contain other civs for other victories, and tried to fight only deffensively, taking only one or two cities at a time. In turn 500 I still missed technology for two spaceship parts. And that was even after building almost every science wonder.

I felt continously threatened, mostly by Brazil's high tourism and by Austria's power in UN. Prince difficulty, remember. You can't ignore world propossals that punish research, so I needed to retain some CS under control. A monopoly in truffles didn't help.

The previous games that I have won, I conquered more than a third of the world, reaching some victory or another just by wiping other civs from their best cities. I'm starting to think the only way to win is conquering half map and choosing your fav victory type.

 

[crdvis16]

I've won Culture, Science, and Diplo victories while going 3-4 cities tall and not conquering anyone. I don't think conquering half the map is required at all, at least on Immortal. In fact, those peaceful tall games were some of the easiest games I've had, though arguably some of the least fun and interactive as well.

 

[tu_79]

I've won Culture, Science, and Diplo victories while going 3-4 cities tall and not conquering anyone. I don't think conquering half the map is required at all, at least on Immortal. In fact, those peaceful tall games were some of the easiest games I've had, though arguably some of the least fun and interactive as well.

Ok, I'll try super-tall next time.

 

[crdvis16]

Ok, I'll try super-tall next time.

Probably works best with civs whose UA shines when tall. Austria, Babylon, Korea, and Brazil are some that I've won with in recent memory when going tall and peaceful.