Reduce Turns to Make Things

SmallBrain

Chieftain
Joined
Apr 3, 2016
Messages
28
Being new to Civ4, I have found that I desperately need to reduce the number of turns it takes to make/build things (eg units [maceman, worker, galleon etc], buildings [harbour, courthouse, etc]) in a given city.

How do I do this ? Does it just happen when the city grows (more culture) ?

Please direct my reading if it is more appropriate

SmallBrain
5.April.2016
 
Whip population = things built in fewer turns.
 
Yes the whip is under most circumstances the best way to maximize hammers/turn.
 
OK, whipping is the most common way to maximize the hammers/turn
How do I how many hammers/per turn I have in a given city at any time ?

What other ways are there to increase hammers/turn ? Does building, say mines, give you 2 hammers per turn, or just two hammers ? I think I've got lots of hammers (but I don't know) but not enough per turn ? Is that how hammers work ?

Sorry for all the stupid questions; I couldn't find this info, I did look, honest

SmallBrain
5.April.2016
 
Try posting a save for proper advice. Hard to know what you are really doing or what date your game is at. A photo tells a thousand stories. Why don't you load some of the posted games to see what they did with their cities.
 
What other ways are there to increase hammers/turn ? Does building, say mines, give you 2 hammers per turn, or just two hammers ? I think I've got lots of hammers (but I don't know) but not enough per turn ? Is that how hammers work ?

It sounds like you have never been in the city screen and seen how your citizens create food, hammers and commerce.
 
I've decided to take your advice Gumbolt, and post a saved game of which I have a few (because I don't know to switch to other programs [I haven't tried alt + F4, mental note] while not losing the game) to see if that helps. This does not make the questions I asked redundant

I am at war with the biggest player in the game (when I declared war he was one of the smallest and I was the biggest) and my cities need health and my citizens need to kept happy. So I need to build items which give me these AND I also need troops PDQ. I expect this is a common situation.

I do look at the city screens but it is true I do not fully understand them - thank for reminding me to investigate the meaning of all the symbols again (if they aren't too small read)

SmallBrain
5.April.2016
 

Attachments

The math behind the hammers is actually pretty easy: In the city screen, you see hammers for each plot/tile you are working.

The big white circled tiles are ones that you are currently using, all others are not worked by your citizens. So, having ten mines in your city doesn't help you if you don't have ten citizens to produce hammers there. Your citizens of course also need food, so food is more valuable to work. You can change the tiles you are working by clicking them off and on.

Now, count all the hammers in the tiles you are working: This is the base amount of your hammer production. Six worked hammers = six base production. Twenty worked hammers = twenty production.

If you have buildings that give you a modifier on your production, they are added on that amount: A forge gives +25% on top of the 100% of your base production.
So on six hammers, 6*125% = 7.5 rounded up = 8 hammers. And on twenty hammers, 20*125% = 25 hammers. There are several buildings, civics and production facilities that give you modifiers on the hammers, so that it is easily possible to achieve 500 hammers in the late game, in only one city. Tanks aren't cheap, so you need them hammers!

There are several more sources of hammers (specialists, overflow, whipping/buying), but this is the basic setup.
 
Things are not going too well in that save. 5-6 cities by 1500ad is bad! The land is terrible on this map. Great Plains is not a good way to learn civ 4.

You are missing some of the basics of civ 4.

A few examples.
You are building mines outside the workable tiles of your capital? You can only work tiles that you can view when you open up the city.

Farming plains is never a good idea. Working farmed plains is an even worse idea.
Cottages are often a good idea in your capital. I can only see 1 cottage. 1-2 farms for growth would allow cottages. (Grassland farms.)

What have you against chopping down forest? On Civ 4 first edition they are worth 30 hammers. That would really speed up production here.

Kufah and Besh are almost 9-10 tiles from your capital. 3-4 tiles is my usual rule. With normally a food resource in inner ring of city. You have little or no food resources on the map or near these 2 cities.

Have you found the civic screen yet??? You know you can change them??? Slavery would really help to speed up builds. Whipping is a key part of civ 4. Bureaucracy helps with hammers/commerce in the capital. The gold ring in the top right corner will show you the civic screen.

At some point you need to learn the value of great people. 1 great person by 1500ad is not good.

Overall start over. Choose normal settings until you are ready for the challenge of great plains. Be much more ambitious in expansion. 7-8 cities by 1ad should be more than possible.

If you are truly willing to learn post a starting save and play game but wait for advice. Oh and install civ 4 Beyond the Sword. It's been out for 6-7+ years now?
 
Oh did you notice the corn/pigs site north of your capital??? That would of been my first city. I would of settled next to the corn so a border pop would of allowed a pasture on the pigs.

Capital. 2 farms. 6-7 cottages on the grassland. Camp on the deer.
Turfan with cottages was okay. With 2-3 farms could of ran 3-4 mines.

Anyway you need to get the basics right here before you can go to war. You need road networks, you need an empire of 5-6 cities that can whip units. You need to find out how to use slavery and how to whip cities to speed up builds.

Overall too much to teach you in a day. Go away and have a play and pick a much easier map.

First tech is normally a worker tech. If lots of forest nearby Bronze working is always a good tech. First build should normally be a worker then warrior/warrior before a settler at size 3-4. Then scout for new city sites. There is no point putting a defender in your capital till size 4-5 if it is likely to become unhappy.
2nd city should normally be 3-4 tiles away and have a food resource in inner ring.
2nd city 2900bc-2400bc.
3rd city 2000bc-1800bc.
4th city normally before 1000bc.
Aim for 6-7+ cities by 1ad.

Build granaries/monuments where needed. Early on focus on food resources/mines/cottages and roads to hook up happiness resources or military resources.

Good luck.
 
Big thanks to Gumbolt for giving all those valuable pointers. Like I suggested in the other thread, there is a manual, there are tutorials, guides and even videos on YouTube. SmallBrain, please consult them before opening even more threads!

A side note. Y'all please stone me to death for saying it in this forum: there is a reason why Civ V is so vastly more popular: It's easier to learn and play, the ingame advisors are certainly more insistent with their advice. It's noobfriendly while still catering to strategists - up to a degree anyway. Which is why I returned and repent my V-ish ways.

Civ IV is hard, not only in comparison. Very complex with dozens of info screens you need to navigate and a hundred unobtrusive buttons that just sit there while you possibly never knew that they are there, waiting to be put into good use. It got worse with the expansions, and the information flood with BUG mod is overwhelming but actually easier to manage. Eventually. This extremely steep learning curve makes IV much more rewarding once you finally mastered not only basic gameplay but also strategy.

SmallBrain, don't think your brain is too small or something like that. This is just a pretty harsh game, so kudos for trying to figure it out. You have come to a good learning place, too. :goodjob:

If I may quote from ten years ago:
The two most important things you can do for both the Civ newcomer and the die-hard Civ fan...

1. Read the manual. (Seriously, READ it. Very important)
2. Read the manual a few more times. :p
Afterwards, maybe look into this thread or this one and take notes of whatever you didn't know already but think it might be useful. Don't read each page though - skip through it.
Don't skip through the manual though!
 
Yes but some people like the complexity and different challenges that Civ 4 BTS brings over CIV. If it's more popular it is only because it is newer.

In terms of Smallbrain. We all had to start somewhere on Civ 4. I agree he does need to play around with the start and do much more research as you can't teach civ 4 in 2-3 threads over a few posts.
 
See the tile yield icons all over the map? (:hammers::commerce::food:) Those are what you can get per turn by working each tile. Double click a city and you see which tiles the city is working (circled) and reassign them if you want. The automatic city governors are OK but can never know what plans you have for your empire - e.g. whether you want units now or later, tech now or later, etc.

Generally speaking, work tiles with more:
:food: to grow the city's population faster so be able to work even more tiles
:commerce: to get commerce, most simply this speeds up your technology research but can also make culture or espionage
:hammers: to build stuff faster!​

That's the game really. Get as much of those tile yields up off the map as fast as you can, in an appropriate mixture for your chosen win condition.

I think Civ 4's quite simple if it's boiled it down to just that. If people are thinking 5 is more approachable IMO it'll just be because complexity is hidden better - in Civ 4 all the dials and controls are right out front which can give the impression it's more complicated than it is. Or at least that you have to use every dial and knob to play the game, which is absolutely not true. E.g. @smallbrain slavery/whip is a "medium" level way of getting more production but if you get distracted by it now you'll be using a medium technique without really understanding the basic level stuff it's based on. Not to mention slavery is fiddly micromanagement and will persuade you even more that the game's complicated when it need not be.
 
The auto city governor is decent when you put him on emphasize food. But you should mostly be choosing the tiles you work.

The most important of the three yields is :food: as it allows you to gain everything else. Keep in mind every citizen consumes 2 :food:/turn so the real yield of any tile is actually its yield minus 2 :food: - for example a 4 :hammers: tile really gives you 2 :hammers: since you need to consume 2 :food: per turn to work it.
 
First a big thanks to everyone who contributed to this thread.

I take special note of 2, Read the manual again
I assume the book that came with the disk is the manual referred to; I have looked at that (not read it though); it appeared to contain mostly the contents of the civopedia (aside from the tutorial game which I have completed).

This my fifth or sixth game, in fact, including the tutorial game. Four have been played against one AI opponent only and I seemed to come out well, so I thought I'd move on. Maybe I should indeed go back !

Yes I have found the civics screen. I have avoided them because they are all the things that I consider cause trouble in society ! I did not notice the corn/pigs site, no. I noticed fur, deer and sugar. I thought they were valuable so I tried to go there near the start. Near Ulan Bator there is iron, which I have found difficult to obtain, and cows which I haven't yet developed because Saladin will destroy my pasture. I place my cities further apart than 3-4 tiles to allow for expansion, which I understand is basically circular: all the land is soon taken over by foreigners if I don't - this thinking must be wrong. Often I try to build farms because whatever else, food id is essential, on tiles near rivers, and cottages because I need money (I was dangerously low/losing it at some point so I tried to build cottages) and I've already alluded to the hammers. I am certain whether the items gained from developing land go to the worker's origin city or the city in whose territory the tiles lie, but I'll figure that out. I am thinking maybe I expanded too fast at the start instead of consolidating, which has left me militarily weak. I decided on war against a seemingly weak opponent, as I explained, in order make more land for future expansion. In general I believe war is a mistake (and so it has proved) because it saps resources. It's hard to remember one's original mission was to drain the swamp when up to one's neck with alligators :)

Overall, I think I have hammers concept figured, more hammers equals faster production (but it doesn't seem to be working !!) [Am I wrong in this ?]
Thank you for the summary, Kid_R, quite useful.

Some reading and practice is called for - and checking back to this thread

SmallBrain
6.April.2016
 
The manual and in-game tutorial are not particularly helpful. Check out Civ Illustrated (links in Seraiel's signature) for much more up-to-date information on how to play the game.
 
@ Smallbrain.

If you are refusing to switch civic then you might as well stop playing the game now as you are severely handicapping your game. It's great to have beliefs but this should be treated as a game. E.g. Not switching to bud religion because your real life religion differs will lose you games if every other Ai adopts that religion. I really don't get that argument.

This is Chieftain level. The Ai won't build their second city till 1000bc or so. On immortal level they often have 5-6+ cities by 1000bc. Do not judge your expansion on the AI. I would hardly say they were a threat to taking your land. You have a huge advantage on this level.

3 cities by 2000bc was fine. Farms are not great builds unless you have no food resources. Overall you need to grow your economy. You do this with a mix of cottages, specialists and commerce resources. That or use production to build wealth/science in your cities.

You claim your economy was struggling? This is because you had no commerce resources. (1 fur.) You probably did not use the cottages in the city screen. You chose a 3rd city site 9-10 tiles from your capital. The further away a city is from your capital the more it costs each turn.

What I didn't like about your game is once you reached 3 cities you basically stopped expanding for best part of 2000 years. You don't win games by doing this.

The distant barb city you captured was a burden on your economy too.

I think you need to decide if you are playing for fun or want to develop your skills to play on higher levels like Monarch.
 
Gumbolt, I guess that not every player will want to try higher levels of gameplay. Unless I make significant progress in the next year, I probably won't try emperor, ever.
Still it needs a gift to lose on chieftain.

Smallbrain, if you are remaining a barbarian until you can finally adopt free speech and free religion, universal suffrage, environmentalism and emancipation, you will have to wait until your neighbars are bringing them to your cities after conquering them.
The labor civic slavery enables the very powerful tool of whipping. Sure, slavery is awful in real life, but in this game, you can use it to the point of abuse: Sacrificing your (slave) population to build up your infrastructure. Whip, regrow, whip, regrow until you have an army and a city full of magnificent buildings. Use that for research and production, until more civilized civics are available.
If it helps: each time you whip your cities, stop the game, do penance and slave around in the household or garden yourself. Cleaning, ironing, dish-washing, vacuuming, lawnmowing, watering the flowers, whatever. Your household will be the envy of the entire neighborhood soon.

Because, putting it bluntly, if you are able to play a game on a computer and talk about it over the internet? Then you are probably exploiting people of the past and present who built the infrastructure and luxury you enjoy this very moment. But that is a sensitive topic, I'll stop here before I start ranting about how unfair life is...

Um, back to your game: You made a very sensible decision when you decided to grab important pieces of land far away. This strategy is called Rapid Early eXpanding - short REXing. On higher levels, that can keep valuable land and resources out of the hands of the AI enemy. However, you clearly overdid it: You grabbed land too far away. The maintenance cost of cities far from your capital is a lot higher than cities that are overlapping your original capital. If there are resources nearby, you should first aim to get them. Forget about the gold and gem hills twenty tiles away from your capital! Grow your inner ring of a few cities, develop your infrastructure there. Once you did it, and you can build courthouses (which lessen the maintenance penalty of far away cities), you are ready to do a second wave of expansion. If other civs have settled there in the meantime? That's life, look elsewhere.

Now, on war. The AI will keep looking for trouble because it wants to win the game as well. If they decide you are too powerless and/or if your annoy them much (e.g. by having your borders too close to them, or a dozen other reasons), they prepare an army and invade you.
So, as a newbie, just build a moderate army if you don't want to get a surprise visit. Even better, have that army, and once you see that you can't win the game without the juicy land of enemy X, then you should quickly outfit your army with overwhelming offensive numbers (whip helps! also look at what the AI has themselves!) before (!!) you declare war. Then crush them and take their stuff if it is worth it. Destroy other cities if these are crap.

War is hard, of course. But a war done right (and won quickly!) will not kill your economy. Instead, afterwards you have more resources and land and population and hopefully money. The strategy I explained above is just a rough outline of course. Experienced players will run circles around the chieftain level AI even with a smaller army, but as a newbie, you might try brute force and unleash an overkill army of many powerful macemen and trebuchets against a few weak archer/longbow defenders. Once you learned to defeat the AI with overwhelming force, you will love a little bit of war. Just be prepared not to be at the pointy end of the knife.
 
Yes, I do play for fun, I am not a professional ! (or serious). That's why it's called a game. I started at the easiest level because I thought that was most appropriate for some new to the game (having played the board game only once, a long time ago). I feel that that I am not ready to progress from the easiest level yet ! (it may take me many years in real time). I am as gifted player - I do not quit and restart when I am losing :) Penance doesn't help (but I need to some of those jobs anyway); two wrongs do a right

How does one "use" cottages ? As for commerce resources, (eg fur) how do you get them if tiles do not exist in your city (or you haven't noticed them) ? (or if you have traded them away)

I am experimenting with the game at present, and some gaps - perhaps the most significant ones - in my knowledge are being filled with your joint help, for which I thank you. I am also, maybe wrongly, applying my 'common sense' to the game rather than knowing the rules, thus slavery - I would have thought that slavery would increase unhappiness in the popn = less work. But I learn that actually slavery increases work, as well as applying the modern belief that slavery is bad. This, like the civics, I have effectively 'turned off' that feature for the moment. I should be more adventurous in my experiments and explore more features of the game.

I did not realize that increasing distance between your cities made their upkeep more expensive ! I thought each was essentially independent, though it had a common resource for e.g., gold, trading with other players. That was a revelation. I grabbed the barbarian city (Gaul) because it allowed me to expand and it denied that possibility to Saladin (who held the city for one turn - I consider myself fortunate that he did that as he sustained the combat damage in capturing the city and was consequently weaker there), as per my beliefs that was a 'good' thing for progression in the game (expansion of the empire); I've also got my eye on a barbarian city to the east of Turfan because that is one of the few areas into which I can expand, and I have been of troubled in Turfan and Karakoram by barbarian raiders from the east. I had planned to link up cities on the south coast by expanding Turfan so that it included the important resource of a horse tile (I have none). I'd like a galleon to allow me to land (at present nonexistent) forces from Turfan as well as attacking that barbarian city to the east by land

Two further things: do you experts think I should I make peace with Saladin ? He asks only music.

And, in combat, especially catapults, why do the enemy always seem to get first go even though my catapults has a first strike ? Is it because I am attacking ? (pre-emptive strike on a marauding enemy force). This might be explained in manual/guides, I haven't looked and I do not ask for an answer until I have failed to find that detail

SmallBrain
7.April.2016
 
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