[GS] Religious Settlements - Gets you a ... Settler!

[GKShaman]

So it used to be 15% border growth. Now its that AND a free Settler. Hellllooooo T15 three city start!

Thoughts? This is meant to be a short post. Also I love that they let you keep your pantheon no matter what. But moreover i usually ALWAYS pick God of the Open Sky.

I take that God of the Open Sky can grant up to 10 culture per turn at T70 maybe if you really push for it and buy tiles. My main question is (if someone could do the math) when is it better to pick God of the Open Sky than Religious Settlements.

 

[Rosty K]

After the latest patch you only get Religious Settlements if you get the first (or maybe second) pantheon, so in most games the problem is solved for you

 

[bbbt]

Religious settlements is very strong, but I'll usually take a strong faith generating pantheon (and push for an early monumentality golden age) if I have the opportunity.

 

[shaky]

I'm rather partial to Earth Goddess these days.

 

[Victoria]

I could not answer the poll, just annoyed me, watering down Pantheons like this is not good.
It does depend on your difficulty whether you get it and whether you want it.

For a start it is so early now that you tend to get it before you can build a settler yourself. You do save yourself 1 pop (not a big deal when you are only at 2-3 pop because the growth rate is higher at lower pops) however you now are building your next builder at +20 production. Of course you can effectively cheat by SHIFT+ENTER but that is clearly bypassing the games intentions. It is an early benefit and you cannot underestimate how much value that is. The thing is a settler progresses your entire civ, not just the culture portion.

... and what is this god of the open sky always weirdness? you saying you would take that always over Oral tradition?
Seems like you do not play religious and dance the desert paths, nor do you play coastal where the god of the sea is king.
Have you ever appreciated how goddess of the hunt has changed and is often hard to turn down. I mean that's 2 builder charges per tile early, goodness

So its not easy to measure all of these up against each other. I think Religious settlements is still likely best in most situations but not all. For example if you have 2-3 military CS's locally the value of it decreases because it is so much easier to build settlers just like Open Sky is not so strong if you have 2-3 early culture CS's and or natural wonders/culture tiles.

... and no God of the open sky does not pay off in the long run. You start with say 2 culture and by T100 maybe have 10 culture off it when you have maybe 100 culture over all and then at T150 you have 300-400 culture of which the open sky may give you 15. God of the Open Sky and Oral Tradition are culture burst early types but adding up their value toward PP when you tend not to have a lot of builders is limited.

I just think its not simple and a key thing is if you have a glut of something like making easy settlers then you are probably doing yourself a disservice by not taking something else but hey, respect your choice and all that.

I personally dislike earth goddess because it stops me placing districts in the places I should but I know I am wrong to think like this, we all have our little weaknesses. God of fire on the other hand was awesome even with only 3 active volcanoes... and you tend not to put districts there,

 

[Stacked_Deck]

RS is a consistently strong choice, but I find it very hard to turn down early sources of culture.

 

[iammaxhailme]

I usually do more long-term things so I rarely take religious settlements. I usually aim for pantheons like divine spark, +yield to $resource, etc.

 

[Lonecat Nekophrodite]

After the latest patch you only get Religious Settlements if you get the first (or maybe second) pantheon, so in most games the problem is solved for you

Is it because this pantheon is buffed up? In the past. Earth Goddess is taken first by AI. then God of the Forge
They didn't even consider Monument of the Gods (and it rarely helps me win Wonder race much, having marble source helps better as it seems that the Civ5 Marble Quarry benefit is carried over.)

 

[GKShaman]

While it is short term - its SUPER impactful imo. Based on if you can capture the RIGHT land can honestly determine if you want to be friends or enemies with your neighbors. Whether you build districts or troops.

 

[Victoria]

Is it because this pantheon is buffed up?

pantheons changed but in the last patch they changed AI preferences to pantheons with RS being high on the list.

 

[UWHabs]

I definitely don't like that increases the cost of future settlers, so isn't a "true" free settler. I think it can depend on timing - a couple times (before the AI valued it more) I've had games where I went to build an early settler, and tried to time my pantheon to come like the turn after my settler was finished. In that case, it's much closer to a free settler, since that gives you a base of 3 cities, and you can probably better plan the next expansion phase. Having that 3rd city can really help you grab more land, carve out your niche, and set you up going forward.

I do like some of the other pantheons as they can continue to produce later, though. The border boost is virtually 0 as far as I can tell, so if I do happen to have a lot of cattle around, or plan lots of desert cities, or something which fits one of the other choices, it's a tough call. Especially if you lack other culture sources, having a quick +2 or so bonus from a couple horse/cow tiles in your capital can be a really nice boost.

 

[Archon_Wing]

It's not really a choice since you'd take the later only if the former is taken. You can get more culture out of a new city more easily anyways.

Also you may not even have pastures.

 

[Lily_Lancer]

Of course you can effectively cheat by SHIFT+ENTER ,

I just tried and this can only save 1 turn of production. Yes if you're only 1T to some a certain tech or civic and don't want to instantly choose from current available list you can do that. But SHIFT+ENTER from T0, trying to make a "settler start" result in failure,

 

[Victoria]

SHIFT+ENTER from T0, trying to make a "settler start" result in failur

Well yes, it was publicised in the last patch. This does not stop some people doing it for a turn or 2... oh no my settler is going to build next turn but I just got RS this turn... oh well I'll S+E and all is well. I never suggested a settler start.

 

[Lily_Lancer]

Well yes, it was publicised in the last patch. This does not stop some people doing it for a turn or 2... oh no my settler is going to build next turn but I just got RS this turn... oh well I'll S+E and all is well. I never suggested a settler start.

I recall the time when I was debating with some scout start guys. I don't know how scout start can outperform a builder start. And their sayings about scout start are somehow untruthful. (I tried a lot but it turns out builder start is usually better).

Suddenly I realized that maybe these "scout starters" are actually not starting with scouts but using "settler start". Just pretend to be starting with scout to ensure their advantages against poor me.

Settler start is certainly much better than builder, I totally agree.

 

[steveg700]

God of the Open Sky...Culture for pastures, something that is not that common on most maps. And there were a lot of cattle taking up real estate on a map, I'd be predisposed to start harvesting to get them out of the way.

Religious Settlements gets crowed about quite a bit, not without reason--it should obviously just be a flat buff to building settlers, probably one that only lasts a few eras--so contending a ballyhooed pantheon against one that actually could use a buff is going to be a dead end proposition. I'd say there's never a better situation, unless you could get a critical mass of pastures right out of the starting gate. I do hate to waste time building monuments or even theater districts early.

 

[Victoria]

but it turns out builder start is usually better

I remember a conversation a looong time ago where you said you just played naturally at the start with what made sense, and so did I.
When i start with a builder it often sits there doing nothing for quite a few turns while if I can get a scout out in 5 turns it has all types of advantages like stopping enemy scouts that perhaps you are not seeing. It is the flexibility of the unit and the many roles it can play but primarily it stops early barb scouts one one side of my city while my warrior does that on the other.
The number of 3 mine starts I get are small but when they are there I sometimes go builder first. Also if a builder will take many turns I will start with a builder because it is all about the builder but also about them having tiles to work. Start in a jungle an a builder is useless.
I also think just looking at your city progress without appreciating the intelligence and opportunity of a scout is wrong. I have stolen many a builder from a CS I did not meet first because I know my scout cannot be one shotted, pillaging a tile can get me the faith I need sometimes. I also question any test where there seems to be a bias with the tester and you appear to be quite biased against them. I do not always start scout by any means but more early production equals more possibility to get one and use it well. If you send it off into the distance yes it sometimes gets killed but of you saw the way I played a scout you would realise that is not how I use them unless I really want a classical Golden age (which I normally do not on deity but perhaps on emperor)
I really believe many of these people are starting scout and getting an advantage over you because of it you are not seeing. I remember a very long time ago GOTM you complained Whacker got an unfair advantage over you because he stole 2 settlers... he uses (used) a scout opening. I have stolen perhaps 5 settlers in the last week.

 

[Lonecat Nekophrodite]

I definitely don't like that increases the cost of future settlers, so isn't a "true" free settler. I think it can depend on timing - a couple times (before the AI valued it more) I've had games where I went to build an early settler, and tried to time my pantheon to come like the turn after my settler was finished. In that case, it's much closer to a free settler, since that gives you a base of 3 cities, and you can probably better plan the next expansion phase. Having that 3rd city can really help you grab more land, carve out your niche, and set you up going forward.

I do like some of the other pantheons as they can continue to produce later, though. The border boost is virtually 0 as far as I can tell, so if I do happen to have a lot of cattle around, or plan lots of desert cities, or something which fits one of the other choices, it's a tough call. Especially if you lack other culture sources, having a quick +2 or so bonus from a couple horse/cow tiles in your capital can be a really nice boost.

Nor do I like the city founding order modifiers, ones that the city of the late order grows slower and less productive than first three cities either.

 

[Kwami]

I don't understand the claim that the Settler from Religious Settlements isn't free. Of course, it's free. It increases the cost of your next Settler, but building a Settler would have done that, too. RS gives you the next Settler without you having to build it or spend Population on it. Thus, it's free. Completely, entirely free. If it didn't increase the cost of the next Settler, then you would also be getting bonus Production on top of the Settler.

In any case, a free Settler early on is really powerful in many starts. But, always taking the same pantheon is boring. I like to sometimes take Earth Goddess, one of the +Faith adjacency bonuses, or one of the +Culture bonuses. Rarely, I might take God of the Forge if I think that I'll have an early war and I don't have enough Production to keep up without it. Goddess of the Hunt is also quite fun if you have the tiles for it!

 

[steveg700]

I remember a conversation a looong time ago where you said you just played naturally at the start with what made sense, and so did I.
When i start with a builder it often sits there doing nothing for quite a few turns while if I can get a scout out in 5 turns it has all types of advantages like stopping enemy scouts that perhaps you are not seeing. It is the flexibility of the unit and the many roles it can play but primarily it stops early barb scouts one one side of my city while my warrior does that on the other.
The number of 3 mine starts I get are small but when they are there I sometimes go builder first. Also if a builder will take many turns I will start with a builder because it is all about the builder but also about them having tiles to work. Start in a jungle an a builder is useless.
I also think just looking at your city progress without appreciating the intelligence and opportunity of a scout is wrong. I have stolen many a builder from a CS I did not meet first because I know my scout cannot be one shotted, pillaging a tile can get me the faith I need sometimes. I also question any test where there seems to be a bias with the tester and you appear to be quite biased against them. I do not always start scout by any means but more early production equals more possibility to get one and use it well. If you send it off into the distance yes it sometimes gets killed but of you saw the way I played a scout you would realise that is not how I use them unless I really want a classical Golden age (which I normally do not on deity but perhaps on emperor)
I really believe many of these people are starting scout and getting an advantage over you because of it you are not seeing. I remember a very long time ago GOTM you complained Whacker got an unfair advantage over you because he stole 2 settlers... he uses (used) a scout opening. I have stolen perhaps 5 settlers in the last week.

Well, Lily likes his chops, so maybe that's what that preference is about.

But yeah, scouts offer a lot of upside. Exploiting CS's to steal builders and pillage tiles is a bit cheap, but meeting CS's first, finding wonders for era score, goody huts that can provide you bennies (like builders), meeting other civ's....and more. Must be a different perspective for a speed player, but seems like the choice to beat.