science on diety

[bryanwallace]

just unable to get far at all on diety level cos i get so far behind on tecs that
my units are too inferior to the other civs...

any tips as to how i can stay more uptodate..

 

[vmxa]

The main thing at Deity and Sid is to understand the flow. IOW once you have done a few of these games, you have a good idea of how the game unfolds.

This lets to not get panicky, while you are behind. You know the phases and how to get back into the game.

They unfold differently with the settings, such as a large map Vs std, lots of land or lots of water.

You want to get as much land as you can at the start and that may mean as few a 6 towns, but that is fine. Often players get over extented and cannot hold the towns they start with.

Try to get contacts and make good trades to stay on par with techs in the AA.

Avoid being dog piled. Try to research techs that you with have a monopoly or near monopoly, so you can get several techs for them and stay close.

I think you can find some games in Gotm to read for ideas.

 

[bryanwallace]

what tecs would those be

 

[vmxa]

Techs that do not yield a wonder or gov or a new unit. Often the optional ones are available.

 

[AutomatedTeller]

in the AA:

Pottery
Alphabet
Math
Currency
Literature
CoL

are all good ones.

in the MA:

Engineering
Monotheism
Theology
Chemistry
Physics
Banking
Economics
Military Tradition (despite allowing cavalry, this is one of the least popular techs to research for the AI)

IA:

Sanitation
Electricity
Corporation
Steel
Medicine
Atomic Theory

There are others.

In a normal game, try to not research:

AA:
Warrior Code
Bronze Working
Iron Working
Map Making
The Wheel
Horseback Riding
Construction

MA:
Feudalism
Invention
Gunpowder
Astronomy
Magnetism

IA
Nationalism
Replaceable Parts

that's a general guideline, of course - if you are the only one with bronze working to start, then researching iron working can give you bump up. If you are the only one in the IA and have no resources, then nationalism is useful.


Something else you can do to catch up is to attack an AI. Build a bunch of catapults and the best attackers you can and go take a couple of cities from an AI, beat off the counterattack and sue for peace for techs. Find another AI and repeat. It takes a lot of nerve to do this sometimes, but it can be very rewarding.

 

[bryanwallace]

sorry but early on dont you need warrior code so you dont get attacked??

or do you just research these ones and trade for the others??

i presume as soon as you get a tech you should trade rather than hoard it..

 

[Xerxes5]

yea thats what he's saying... you have to trade to keep up...

i don't get what you mean about the warrior code... it doesnt prevent you from getting attacked... but again, i'm not sure what you mean... it gives you archers i guess...

 

[bryanwallace]

yes i meant about the archers in the early game-i spose youve got spearment
but hard to attack anybody..

 

[vmxa]

You have to consider what you know and what you face and what makes sense at all times. By that I mean, if you know several civs start with warrior code, but lack one of your starting techs, you probably can get a deal.

Warriors count as much as archers for strength calculations, so I am not worried about them unless I plan on an attack right away. Then archers are of value.

Remember archers cost twice as many shields, so they will take longer to build. That make cost you. If I have 4 archer s and 3 warriors, I do not look as strong as if I had 6 warriors and 2 archers. I could have even more for the 110 shields, say 7 warriors and 2 archers.

Yes maint is more, if you do not have the free unit support, but they double as MP's.

 

[ThinkTank]

@vxma: I agree to what you say except this:

If I have 4 archer s and 3 warriors, I do not look as strong as if I had 6 warriors and 2 archers.

You do, but it's close though.

I could have even more for the 110 shields, say 7 warriors and 2 archers.

This is true and it proves that your general point is correct: if it is about "appearing to be strong", warriors are better value for your shields than archers.

Let's do the calculations. This article in the War academy Study of Inner Workings of Military Advisor explains that the formulae used by the military advisor to determine you as strong/weak/average is this (if I read the article correctly):

Units Strength = Hitpoints * (1.5* AttackPoints + 1 * DefensePoints ) + 0.175 * Bombard Points

Your strength is the sum of this for all units you have. We then have (assuming regulars):

reg archer = 3(1.5*2 + 1) + 0.175 = 12.175
reg warrior = 3(1.5*1 + 1) + 0 = 7.5

4 reg archers + 3 reg warriors = 48.7 + 22.5 = 71.2
2 reg archers + 6 reg warriors = 24.35 + 45 = 69.35
2 reg archers + 7 reg warriors = 24.35 + 52.5= 76.85

For veterans we have:

vet archer = 4(1.5*2 + 1) + 0.175 = 16.175
vet warrior = 4(1.5*1 + 1) + 0 = 10

4 vet archers + 3 vet warriors = 64.7 + 30 = 94.7
2 vet archers + 6 vet warriors = 32.35 + 60 = 92.35
2 vet archers + 7 vet warriors = 32.35 + 70 = 102.35

According to these formulas, an archer does not count as twice as strong as a warrior. But it does cost twice the shields. So in that respect the best value you get for your shields is by building warriors only. And if your goal is to prevent war only (which is often the case in the early game) that is exactly what you should do.

 

[bryanwallace]

going back to the original tech point-
i find it hard to know exactly when i should trade a tech i have a monopoly on..

should i hold it for a while or try to trade straight away..
presume once you trade it to one civ you have to give it all as well..

 

[ThinkTank]

going back to the original tech point-
i find it hard to know exactly when i should trade a tech i have a monopoly on..

should i hold it for a while or try to trade straight away..
presume once you trade it to one civ you have to give it all as well..

This is a difficult subject and I'm not sure if I fully understand this yet, but here is what I normally do. I normally do no trade away a monopoly tech unless I can get something useful for it. That is a lot of money, techs I need but I don't already have, or a much needed alliance. On the other hand, if you can safely assume an AI is researching it and will sell it around soon then you just may have to sell it for the little money that is around.

You don't need to sell it to all once you sell it, since much depends on who knows who. For example, early on in a continents game, it can pay big time to be the only one that knows the other continent. That way, if you sell a monopoly tech on your own continent, you should also sell it to all AIs on your own continent - but it will remain a monopoly in the view of the other continent so you will only sell it there until you can buy something useful on the other continent. That way, you can sell a tech at monopoly prices twice.

 

[rysingsun]

going back to the original tech point-
i find it hard to know exactly when i should trade a tech i have a monopoly on..

should i hold it for a while or try to trade straight away..

We are talking deity, right?

If you don't hurry and trade it you will lose your opportunity. Typically you only hold onto it if it confers a large short term advantage. For example if you have a prebuild palace, you discover literature, you switch to GL wonder and see that it will complete in a few turns, and no one else has literature ... maybe you should hold off on trading it. After all, you don't want some ai rushing GL with a MGL do you? Even that isn't all that likely.

But mainly, just hurry up and trade it while you have the opportunity.

And don't be so paranoid about being behind in tech. It's kind of typical of deity games.

 

[Mao Zendog]

And don't be so paranoid about being behind in tech. It's kind of typical of deity games.

to add to this, you can usualy beat an AI, or human oponent with outdated units if you got a ton of them. Older units are easyer to make anyway, so you will almost always have a number advantage if you stick with quanity rather than quality. Plus if you manage to take over a couple AI citys, you might be able to give peace for most or all of the AI's tech.

I will somtimes put science at 0 percent and build nothing but warriors and spearman. This way i am ensured a number advantage. When my stack gets badly damaged after taking a couple of AI citys, I can always offer peace and demand tech in return. Why bothering spending money on research when you can get the AI to do it for you?

 

[Skibatized]

This is what I do on high difficult level games. Research Iron and stop technology completely, and build tons of swordmen and force the AI into giving you tech, until you are a mid-size nation with a fairly good economy and get caught up in technology. Another tactic is to EXPLORE EXPLORE EXPLORE ASAP curraghs are essential in the very beginning, or warriors... whichever. That way you have a lot of contact and another thing is check with your AI constantly, use diplomacy. Hope this helps. Then again it works for me

 

[bryanwallace]

yes the curragh tactic is a great one-it really improves your tech speed..
small scale wars can help you batter a few techs out of civs as well