[GS] Shall we add Logistic Issues to Troops?

Discussion in 'Civ - Ideas & Suggestions' started by Lily_Lancer, Mar 5, 2020.

  1. bbbt

    bbbt Deity

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    That's pretty interesting proposal.

    I like that you've thought through AI malus, as well as specifying "full-loyalty" cities (so it's a not a benefit on immediate city capture).
     
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  2. leif erikson

    leif erikson Game of the Month Fanatic Administrator Supporter GOTM Staff

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  3. The googles do nothing

    The googles do nothing King

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    Just being a devil's advocate for a moment...

    - This double down on the best army being fewer highly promoted units. Just sayin'
    - XP should be adjusted in the same way. -50%.XP Inside own full-loyalty cities, Inside enemy territory: XP +100%.
    - Why would road be become ineffective? You can pillage your own roads.
    - Rather then 4 tiles away I would prefer a 4 movement points away rule as supplies are not going through mountains.
     
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  4. Boris Gudenuf

    Boris Gudenuf Deity

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    Been thinking and occasionally posting about this since Civ V, so here goes:

    First, before modern bureaucratic states (starting about 17th - 18th century CE) ALL Armies lived off the land outside of their own territory, and many times within it as well. There simply wasn't the infrastructure or government organization (or Technologies) to gather, organize, transport and distribute the huge tonnage of food, fodder, water, and other supplies needed by even a modest army. Remember, in the first half of the game a 'large' city was, historically, 20,000 or more people. An average army (2 Roman Legions with Auxiliaries, for instance) was about the same size, so the requirement was to supply a moving city entirely from far away. Couldn't be done.

    Second, there were huge differences in 'suppliability' among units, armies, cultures, governments, and across and within various types of terrain and climate:
    *Pastoral horse nomads and their armies were notoriously 'supply mobile' - the horses grazed, the men hunted as they went, and in the right terrain they were practically self-supporting. In the wrong terrain, the horses starved along with the men and the army disintegrated in relatively No Time.
    *When Herodotus said that Xerxes's army invading Greece 'drank the rivers dry' that means they effectively Pillaged every tile they moved through. What do you think happened to the local farmers and herders after that army had removed most of their ready water sources? And how many crops or herds do you think were left after that army fed itself?
    *In terrain/tiles where they couldn't Pillage For Food, Armies Died. Deserts, Tundra, Mountainous tiles killed armies. Hannibal lost most of his elephants crossing the Alps. Alexander lost up to a third of his army crossing the Gedrosian Desert. Historically, nobody even tried taking an army across the middle of the Sahara.
    * With great effort, even in Classical and Ancient Eras Power could be projected: Assyria, Babylon, Egypt, Rome, Han China, all built empires, and they sent armies outside their borders to do so: but it took a lot of resources beyond simply forming units.
    * Speaking of Forming Units and manpower requirements. manpower for a military in a developed state was a tiny percentage of the total population. The Roman Empire had between 50 - 75,000,000 people, and the Imperial Army (50+ Legions plus Auxiliaries) was about 500,000 at its maximum size. That's about 1% of the population. In the early Medieval Era, the Fyrd of Anglo-Saxon England required 5 families to band together to provide 1 armed man to the army. We can estimate that at about 3 - 4% of the (farming) population, which was over 90% of the total population - BUT they couldn't project that army anywhere, and the Fyrd could only be kept away from the fields and workshops for about 3 months out of the year - in 1066 CE, most of them had to be sent home after Stamford Bridge, and Harald's army at Hastings was about 50% smaller as a result.

    So, tentative Conclusions and Possible 'Supply' Rules.

    Manpower. Bring back Specialists as a Major Factor in City Management. Each population point would generate one or more Specialists, representing that actual Working Population within the city. Every Building in a city would have a Specialist Slot, and without a Specialist, a Building would produce much less - for instance, a Wall without a Specialist would have NO attack factor - no archers, crossbowmen, gunners. A Specialist-less Market would produce Half the Gold, an Unpopulated Amphitheater half the Culture and NO Great Person points.
    And, every military unit other than Scouts would require a Specialist. This Specialist would be replaced after X turns - roughly, the time required for a new generation to grow up and get trained in the skills, so anywhere from 2 turns in early game to 20 - 25 turns in the late game, making Mass Armies very expensive for a small population in the late game, which is accurate.

    Supply. A city can supply as many Military Units (Scouts, as always, the exception, they are essentially Supply Free) as there are Population Points in the city. IF cities are linked by river or coastal tiles within Sea Trade Route range, all the cities so linked can be considered one 'Source' for Supply.
    BUT the distance that supply can be transported to the army is very limited: Subject to in-game testing, my feeling is that they should be about:
    Ancient/Classical Era: 6 Movement Points;
    Medieval/Renaissance Era: 8 Movement Points
    Industrial/Modern Era: 12 Movement Points
    Atomic/Information Era: 20 Movement Points (the joys of Internal Combustion!)

    Tracing the Route by Water - river edge of a tile or coastal tile - after appropriate Tech Ocean - tiles - would be triple: in other words, in the Ancient Era a Sea Route could be traced 18 tiles to a Unit on the coast, but 1 tile away from the coast they'd be Out Of Supply.
    A Railroad line would also be Triple: in other words, by rail in the Industrial Era you could move supplies through 36 tiles to reach a unit - until, of course, some Cossack pillages the Railroad at some point.
    NOTE that the various improving Roads would also extend the supply line by reducing the Movement Points required to move through the tiles.

    Penalties. An Unit which Starts a turn Unsupplied loses 5 HP. On a second and subsequent turns out of supply, it loses 10 HP per turn. No, Virginia, no military force remains a force without food for 10 - 100 years no matter how you 'justify' it. On the other hand, anyone who leaves a Unit out of supply for 11 turns deserves to lose it.

    Living Off The Land. From Ancient to Renaissance Eras, any Unit can 'Live Off The Land' by Pillaging one tile per turn. This is a special kind of Pillage, which we will call 'Requisitioning', using the same Euphemism the Armies used at the time! Requisitioning takes up half a unit's movement points, rounded down. A tile automatically recovers from Requisitioning 2 turns later. In other words, two Units moving through the same tile on the same turn cannot both Requisition it, but one can wait 2 turns and then subject it to Requisitioning again. IF a tile is 'Requisitioned' twice before it has automatically recovered, then the result is a regular Pillage and must be repaired by Worker action. And, yes, if you want to take a Worker along with your army, that's a good idea: it represents the Non Combatant manpower tied up supporting the army: one Tang Chinese Army (8th century CE) that we have record of had about 20,000 infantry and cavalry, and 60,000 Non Combatant servants, cart drivers, pack animal drivers, etc in support.
    Terrain. Obviously, Terrain in tiles that uses up extra Movement will also shorten your supply lines. In addition:
    Only Scout Units can enter any Ice, Tundra, or Desert terrain Unsupplied. Nobody else, basically, can survive a turn in that terrain and there is nothing to Requisition (This could be modified in that if the tile has an Improvement that provides + Food, it can be 'Requisitioned').
    Technology. You cannot Requisition Ammunition or spare parts for tanks and most military vehicles. The local auto supply shop doesn't carry them, for some reason.
    That means that any Unit using firearms (Requiring Niter or any Industrial Era and later Unit) or requiring Oil MUST have a valid Supply Line or it suffers a 50% penalty to all Combat Factors.

    This allows, in a single mechanism, the massively deadly Encirclement battles of the 20th century to be recreated: cut the enemy supply line, and he's basically Dead Meat.

    Ideally, the Game Engine would simply tell you whenever you are Out of Supply with a Unit - with, for intance, a little bright Red icon above it on the map - so that you did not have to laboriously trace a line to each Unit.

    Using 'semi-realistic' Supply Rules will make Unlimited Warfare a thing of the past in the game, but it will also make your nearest neighbors more of a concern to you: they are the only ones you can 'reach' initially - and more important, the only ones that can reach you! Your Primary Concerns, therefore, will expand as the game progresses, until, as IRL, your concerns become Global only in the post-Industrial Era.

    Couple of final points:
    *Supply does not apply to Barbarians - by their nature, they are Irregulars who steal whatever isn't nailed down (and pry loose most of what is nailed down) to supply themselves.
    *Supply does not apply to Naval Units until they require Coal or Oil: early galleys (and Quadiremes) simply put into a beach and hunted or fished for their meal, later Caravels, Frigates and other sailing vessels regularly spent months at sea self-supplied. Only in the Industrial Era, with the necessity to supply Fuel, did serious limits start applying to 'naval sailing'.

    And that's as far as I've gotten after thinking about this for a long time.
    The trick, as has been stated, is to keep Supply Micromanagement to an absolute Minimum while still keeping something like the realistic limits that supply imposed - without driving the gamer to Rage Quit in frustration because his shiny new Tanks cannot be used outside of his capital city's suburbs!
     
    Last edited: Mar 7, 2020
  5. cvb

    cvb Prince

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    :thumbsup:
    Yes! The concept of cuddled, highly promoted CoreUnits in limited numbers and average AuxiliaryUnits for the rest worked amazingly well in PzGeneral. Especially trimming down a bit the default numbers of CoreUnits did wonders and made the game much more interesting ...
    AIplayers can't/won't do that for tactical reasons. So this rule is an advantage for the human player.

    All right roads should be regular usable, WYSIWYG.
    Decreasing the XP, below a level for which already a promotion was given, could look inconsistent?

    .
     
  6. The googles do nothing

    The googles do nothing King

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    To clarify, if a unit should be awarded 4XP, they would get 2 in your own full-loyalty city and 8 in enemy territory.
     
  7. cvb

    cvb Prince

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    I see. I thought about that possibility, but then I didn't expect units to gain often XP inside of own full-loyalty cities and jettisoned it.

    My approach is along setting maintenance for war (units in enemy territory) so high, that it is not affordable all the time. And then in times, while the human is recovering his treasury for the next campaign, his units at home with extra low maintenance in demobilisation state (unable to heal, move or even defend) loose very slowly Experience (down to the level required for a promotion which is already given).

    .
     
    Last edited: Mar 8, 2020
  8. Sykes179

    Sykes179 Warlord

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    As with most things it's a playoff between realism and playability.

    I've read several posts complaining about the 1UPT rule because it makes moving large armies around difficult but I suppose that just adds some logistical issue that make it a bit more real so that's one reason why I like 1UPT.

    Personally, I preferred it when units couldn't just rock up at the coast and randomly find sufficient boats to put to sea as well as have the expertise to sail them as far as they wanted across the ocean. It made more sense when they had to be loaded on to some sort of transport that had a carrying limit and were vulnerabkle to attack so had to be escorted.Again, that very simply added a level of logistical organisation that was needed without making the game fiddly and unmanageable.
     
  9. mdl5000

    mdl5000 Prince

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    I would make it as common-sense as possible.
    Without having to go through menus to figure out what is going on
    .
    Like, a unit which is alone or surrounded would be more difficult to heal or would have more maintenance, but this can be mitigated by having an adjacent unit.
    Or a unit would be stronger if it's near a road which connects to a friendly city, but if not, they can still pillage tiles to mitigate this.
     
  10. Naokaukodem

    Naokaukodem Millenary King

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    Love this. Problem is that in Civ6, sending a road towards your enemies is kinda not wise, or could sound as a betrayal.

    Now I like how roads are done with caravans, but i like also building them just where needed or even everywhere over the place, transforming the map into a man-made world. Well that's Civ6, Civ5 and Civ4. Well, every Civ actually. Why not mixing those things up and do a thrilling system where you can do basically what you like ? I have no clue how to do this... maybe with cards of some sort ? (governement cards, with a special category that is "infrastructure" ? (to not take the room of other cards))
     
  11. Equilin

    Equilin King

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    I think Barbs should still get hampered by supply (and more than proper settlers) but get a trait that let them requisite for free at the end of every turn of theirs. Meaning an area walked around by barbs will have less supply available for units, and a barb unit going back and forth between 2 tiles only will likely die off.
    For ships, I think pre-industrial ships should get a similar treatment to a certain other grand strat game: staying in ocean tiles for too long will get them attritioned and you have to steer to a non-hostile coast regularly to supply the ships. Of course early ships that came before ocean sailing will not have this problem (unless some civ can traverse ocean earlier).
     
  12. criZp

    criZp Emperor

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    I think an idea would be to give each unit three types of supplies: food, horses/fuel, and weapons/ammo (iron/niter). Each unit can hold a given amount of each.
    Each turn a unit loses food, and if food goes to 0 the unit will take damage each turn.
    Each time a unit attacks or defends the weapons/ammo goes down, and if it reaches 0 the unit cannot attack, and has a penalty on defense.
    Each time a unit moves the horses/fuel goes down, and if it reaches 0 the unit can only move 1 tile per turn (and perhaps also has a penalty on attack).

    Not sure how to handle resupply. Might just happen over time as the units are inside your territory. Food could be resupplied by pillaging farms and stuff, but should maybe be less effective in more modern times, the other things could be resupplied by pillaging tiles that produce the resource (althought there are not many such tiles so this would be rare). But there would probably have to be a way to resupply units outside their empire borders, and this would require cumbersome micromanagement.
     

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