something strange about culture and conquest of cities

[Lt. 'Killer' M.]

I once took a large City, starved it down, garrisoned it, built Temple and Cathedral, library and colosseum.

Then it flipped to the original founder

I used my spies to check it out and it showed over 6000 culture points. When I took it back it had 0 - even though it must have been close to 100 when it flipped.

Unfair advantage to the AI? Or do I remember this wrong?


Aside from that: If they loose a city it should really loose the culture, not have it stored somewhere. I mean when a civ is down to 1 town it can still have more culture then a civ that took all it`s cities and controls all the world?????

 

[Zachriel]

Originally posted by Killer
Then it flipped to the original founder

Next time post the game from a turn or two before the flip. Maybe we can figure out why it flipped.

Aside from that: If they loose a city it should really loose the culture, not have it stored somewhere. I mean when a civ is down to 1 town it can still have more culture then a civ that took all it`s cities and controls all the world?????

The Vatican has tons of culture, just no empire.

 

[ReallyNiceGuy]

Many actual cities in real-life have been conquered by other countries and still is an important "cultural" city. Look at Jerusalem or even Paris.

 

[Ironstone]

It does seem a bit mean when it happens to you I'm sure. But I think what Firaxis ahd in mind was that culture actually is stored - in the hearts and minds of the citizens.

There's been lots of controversy about the way flipping is done by the game - which I won't repeat (there are dozens of threads here already) - but the general idea is that when you capture a city by force they remain loyal to their original civilisation until gradually won over by their new "masters".

In principle this seems perfectly reasonable. If the Russian captured New York by force you wouldn't expect the citizens to adopt Russian Culture overnight. They might do as they were told in some respects, but culture is a different issue. Losing your power is not the same as losing your culture.

In countries like Australia and the USA which have long migrant histories the pattern is very often that a big percentage of migrants from other cultures will bring their habits and practises with them and the process is one of gradual assimilation in both directions. Typically, the next generation born to the migrants drop most of the "old ways" and become fully Australian, American or whatever. (Civ3 does try to model the "next generation" idea.)

The relative size of the countries (civs) doesn't make a lot of difference in practise. We have communities here where there are old grannies who still resolutely speak their original language and retain their old ways at home - even after 30 or 40 years here. But their kids and grandkids are usually fully assimilated.

Much the same happens with Civ3. Whether it's well modelled or whatever is another debate, but it seems OK to me. As far as I can see civs (and cities too from what you say) keep their overall accumulated "historical" culture (and this can happen - ancient Eyptian culture is still influental today) but they lose any current buildings etc.

So Temples, Cathedral, Libraries, etc are all erased on capture (to stop the new masters getting culture points benefit from the "wrong" culture, and either side will need to build their own religious and educational institutions to reflect the new views. Seems reasonable to me in principle.

 

[Lt. 'Killer' M.]

Yes Paris still is a big cultural city. But if it belonged to a different culture, at least part of the culture would benefit the new masters. And some of the old culture should get lost during occupation (make that a turn based reduction). Paris isn`t Roman Lutetia anymore, even if the Romans should arise again!

I know why the City flipped - my government toppled - f*** war weariness! That`s ok, I just don`t like it when I kill of 13 of 14 pop and the last 1 remembers >6000 culutre points. Not realistic and verrrrrry annoying!

 

[narmox]

Originally posted by Killer

Then it flipped to the original founder

I used my spies to check it out and it showed over 6000 culture points. When I took it back it had 0 - even though it must have been close to 100 when it flipped.

There is nothing strange there. There is no unfairness, the same happens to you. When a city is conquered, the new owner starts at 0 culture. But if the city returns to the original owner (by flipping or conquest), it retrieves its previous culture value.

So, if a city has 19 999 culture points and is captured by the AI and he builds a temple, he won't win a cultural victory (that would be unfair). But if you recapture it, you'll still have your 19 999 culture, so you won't have to start for scratch...

 

[Lt. 'Killer' M.]

narmox: nothing strange, but when I got the city back later the culture was again gone - where did the culture gain during my reign go? some 88 points lost into nothingness.....

 

[eyrei]

I guess the game only stores the culture for the civ with the most citizens of its nationality. I wonder, though, if you held the city long enough to assimilate all the citizens, if the culture stored would still be that of the civ that founded it.

 

[Lt. 'Killer' M.]

actually I killed them all off except for one, then let it grow to size 4 - so most were mine! Might be it stores culture only for the founder though.