to all the MODDERS: Standardize!
- Thread starter abso
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LAnkou
Breizh A Tao
As a gathering mod maker (superciv), i really like the idea of standardisation...
For new civ, i would really like:
-Text in only one XML file!!! look at Carthage by Jecrell, it's a very good thing to have!!! I can't bear searching text into different files...
-Changes at the end of the files (or at the beggining), it's very boring and frustrating searching through files for changes (and that lead to mistakes too!!!)
-this one is very specific to superciv: don't change the color sets of vanilla civ and try to get your own one!!! it is the hardest part of my mod to get different colors for every civ, if people can make their own, it would save me a lot of time
-for text, even if it is in english only, put the english text into all different languages: look at my mods (Bretagne and Celts) i put english text between german, spanish and italian tags...
i dream about:
a zip file containing only the changes in the XML files, so i just copy/paste things...well nice dream
gonna post this on the superciv thread
For new civ, i would really like:
-Text in only one XML file!!! look at Carthage by Jecrell, it's a very good thing to have!!! I can't bear searching text into different files...
-Changes at the end of the files (or at the beggining), it's very boring and frustrating searching through files for changes (and that lead to mistakes too!!!)
-this one is very specific to superciv: don't change the color sets of vanilla civ and try to get your own one!!! it is the hardest part of my mod to get different colors for every civ, if people can make their own, it would save me a lot of time
-for text, even if it is in english only, put the english text into all different languages: look at my mods (Bretagne and Celts) i put english text between german, spanish and italian tags...
i dream about:
a zip file containing only the changes in the XML files, so i just copy/paste things...well nice dream
gonna post this on the superciv thread
deKoven
Chieftain
AlCosta15 said:
Well sir, you've just helped me make my decision. [Note to self: NEVER pick up anything written by this guy!]
As a former programmer I started out with just this sort of attitude. My super disabused me of that notion right smartly. His comment? You do it our way because that's what I'm directing you to do!
I thought it was a load of bull! I wasn't gonna be bound by his claptrap and went my merry way. After working on a program (long and VERY involved) and NOT doing it his way, I got FIRED! So much for MY free spirit. I learned the very hard way that those rules were there for all those programmers coming behind.
Have you given a thought or two to the person(s) who will pick up your file much later in the cycle after the thread describing it has long since gone to pages lost in the shuffle? I recently picked up a game again which I had let slip by for newer stuff. So much of the mods for it had gone, gone, gone. If there were no readme's and such like I'd be up the soup for mods to the game.
Flames will be placed in the bit bucket where they belong!
![[pissed]](/images/smilies/pissed.gif "Pissed [pissed]")
ShroudedMist
Chieftain
- Joined
- Apr 12, 2005
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laugh chill out man.
The difference is that this is something people do as a hobby. It isn't a career. We aren't expecting people to be software engineers who use good coding practices (try pinning down what exactly that means and entails...you can't). Next someone is going to suggest we put it all under source control backed up across redundant RAIDs on different planets circling different stars.
If you aren't able to search multiple text files at once then you need to learn how. If you aren't able to perform a diff and merge of two files then you'd save yourself a lot of time by learning how.
This isn't to say that some standardization wouldn't be helpful. However, some of these heavy-handed suggestions have more to do with some people clearly not certain skills more than anything. When one looks at the simplicity of how mods are actually created (ie edited xml files), it's rather sobering to see people pulling their hair out over trying to combine mods.
If you left the changes inplace based on the location of the orignal xml and added original content at the end, then you could easily do a merge in a matter of 30s.
Why am I getting into this? Use and ignore whatever mods you wish.
The difference is that this is something people do as a hobby. It isn't a career. We aren't expecting people to be software engineers who use good coding practices (try pinning down what exactly that means and entails...you can't). Next someone is going to suggest we put it all under source control backed up across redundant RAIDs on different planets circling different stars.
If you aren't able to search multiple text files at once then you need to learn how. If you aren't able to perform a diff and merge of two files then you'd save yourself a lot of time by learning how.
This isn't to say that some standardization wouldn't be helpful. However, some of these heavy-handed suggestions have more to do with some people clearly not certain skills more than anything. When one looks at the simplicity of how mods are actually created (ie edited xml files), it's rather sobering to see people pulling their hair out over trying to combine mods.
If you left the changes inplace based on the location of the orignal xml and added original content at the end, then you could easily do a merge in a matter of 30s.
Why am I getting into this? Use and ignore whatever mods you wish.
Anima Croatorum
Prince
Weasel Op said:
They're extinct place any city you wish.
Dont use Zadar(Zara) or Nice(Nizza) for Italy, Cartajena for Tunisia, Paris for Ireland or Kuwait City for Iraq.
They reason you aren't going to get a standardized format is two-fold:
a) modders don't get paid; and
b) modders don't answer to you
As the months go by and more and more mods come out, players seem to forget these two things. Let's not do that here, else we'll get poster after poster whining about some modder who didn't do things the way they "should" have been done, arrogantly ignoring the fact that the word "should" doesn't apply to modders and never will.
You can talk about "shoulds" the moment you start paying modders a decent salary to do nothing but mod all day long. Until then, the only proper form of address to a modder who produces is "thank you".
Max
a) modders don't get paid; and
b) modders don't answer to you
As the months go by and more and more mods come out, players seem to forget these two things. Let's not do that here, else we'll get poster after poster whining about some modder who didn't do things the way they "should" have been done, arrogantly ignoring the fact that the word "should" doesn't apply to modders and never will.
You can talk about "shoulds" the moment you start paying modders a decent salary to do nothing but mod all day long. Until then, the only proper form of address to a modder who produces is "thank you".
Max
None of this would be an issue if the publisher had provided with the necessary tools & documentation. Instead we're all trying to make heads from tails of the editing options each our seperate ways; with recurring threads about recurring issues and the offhand contempt from those here who are professional programmers and navigate through python codings or graphic editing like fish in water.
It's the responsability of the company offering the product to provide the standards, the documentation and the tools. It wasn't done solely to cut on the production costs and because they rely on the smarmy jacasses here to do their job in their place. So this debate is pointless.
G.
It's the responsability of the company offering the product to provide the standards, the documentation and the tools. It wasn't done solely to cut on the production costs and because they rely on the smarmy jacasses here to do their job in their place. So this debate is pointless.
G.
ShroudedMist
Chieftain
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Firaxis owes you nothing in that regard. Their product to you is CivIV, not a fully evolved and exposed SDK for creating your own expansion. It also isn't their responsibility to provide you with tools to edit xml or python for that matter. All the random maps, scripts and scenarios are sitting right there alongside the assets folder. Unpack art0 and you have all the graphics to boot. They said CivIV is highly moddable and it is. As far as maps go, the BMPtoWBS converter is so easy to use if you know a little Photoshop. Using layers you can quickly and easily make and test changes.
maxpublic said:
we're digressing, but:
we can talk about shoulds. it's a matter of userfriendliness. there IS software-development out there with people involved who don't get paid. they comply with standards.
we cannot talk about "musts" as long as nobody gets paid. but we can talk about shoulds.
I'm not forcing anyone (i'm not able to do so, anyhow) - so if you don't like the idea, don't follow it. those who find it good might find out what common standards might be useful.
btw, i'm not talking about standards or limits concerning the content of a mod (like what civs are accepted and what not). i think such a codex is a good idea, but it's a different discussion i guess.
adding the language issue to post no. 1, thanks LAnkou (also affects me, as a german-speaking austrian)
edit: oh and other pple on the same topic:
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=144194 suggestion on merging mods, by zx1111
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=140188 a mod switcher tool, by tdb
ShroudedMist said:
Well I guess we disagree about what the extent of Firaxis' commitment & responsability should be.
I have done all you mention and more. But now I'm stucked because there simply isn't enough documentation about the hundreds of variables involved - some of which are redundant for no apparent reasons. And before you say I only need to ask around - browse this sub-forum and notice how many times I've opened threads requesting specific information - only to have them go unanswered most of the time.
When I'm told something is easy to mod I do not expect there should be no work or efforts involved - however I do expect proper information on how to go about doing this (unpaid) job.
G.
abso said:
Yeah, it's called "open source" and has nothing whatsoever to do with modding games. They comply with community-set standards because if they don't their products won't work - at all.
What you're talking about here is a systematic way of doing the formating and commenting. That doesn't exist in modding in any game I've been involved in, nor does it exist in the open source world. One has only to take a gander at any dozen projects at SourceForge to see the truth of that. Everyone has their own style, and because they're doing what they're doing for free they aren't answerable to anyone else in that regard.
The only people who get annoyed with this are the ones who think THEIR system should be used by everyone else. That's a silly expectation any which way you slice it. Like I said, you start paying me and I'll consider it; until then I'll do whatever I think is best, and that's pretty much the end of it.
As for the mysteriousness of modding this game, there are in essence two separate issues: the xml files, and the python files. The python files require either some expertise in programming, or the willingness to puzzle out the programming (with the help of folks here), along with some basic natural talent. Not everyone is going to be able to master the art of writing python code; in fact, most people will never be able to do this, but there simply isn't any other way to accomplish what the code does. There is no 'magic toolset' that can replace real, honest-to-god coding, and non-programmers need to understand that. You can't overlay a GUI on the code and hope to become a pseudo-programmer by mastering ten thousand pretty little buttons.
If you've been struggling with Python tutorials for the past couple of weeks and are no closer to understanding it than when you started, it's time to admit that you just don't have the talent (just like I'll never be a pianist, or an auto mechanic) and give it a rest. That's just the way it is. Everyone has their own set of talents, and none of us are Renaissance men (or women). If it's any consolation, no previous Civ editor modified the code either; they just changed the values of certain variables, much like we do with the XML. And they weren't nearly as versatile as having access to the XML files in Civ 4 is, either.
As for the XML files, *everyone* can understand them if they stop looking at the files as if they were written in a programming language, like the Python files. XML is nothing more than HTML on steroids, and neither XML nor HTML is a programming language of any kind; they're just ways to format documents to make them look prettier, or easier to do things with. That's all. It doesn't take a lick of innate talent at programming to use XML, just as it doesn't take any talent to use HTML, as so very many people demonstrate on the web every single day.
All of the XML files are just ways to display documents, or organize information. The only mysterious thing about any of them is what some of the more esoteric variables do. And you can crack any one of them open in Notepad and modify them at will; no special programs of any kind required. In fact, I'd argue against using a specialized XML editor since these programs usually just make XML look more complicated than it is (a sales tactic for the program).
The XML files can do 95% of what people on this forum tend to ask for. You can completely alter the game just with the XML, without ever touching Python. In fact, I'm doing just that right now.
Max
Uty
I hate you, Milkman Dan
Organizing programmers is like herding cats into a straight line.
What I think some have lost sight of is that every mod you can download is the result of someone spending their free time making something for the community. The community owes those people respect, even if what they made is total crap. (In the case of total crap, remember honey attracts more flies than vinegar.)
If the community comes up with some sort of standard that's great. I hope a majority of modders conform to that standard to maximize efficiency. Modders who choose not to conform to that standard should not be chastized - you'd effectively be convincing some very bright people to stop contributing over what is more or less a bunch of fluff.
What I think some have lost sight of is that every mod you can download is the result of someone spending their free time making something for the community. The community owes those people respect, even if what they made is total crap. (In the case of total crap, remember honey attracts more flies than vinegar.)
If the community comes up with some sort of standard that's great. I hope a majority of modders conform to that standard to maximize efficiency. Modders who choose not to conform to that standard should not be chastized - you'd effectively be convincing some very bright people to stop contributing over what is more or less a bunch of fluff.
ShroudedMist
Chieftain
- Joined
- Apr 12, 2005
- Messages
- 75
Bingo!
I think the real issue with python at this instant is that noone has actually released all that many mods using it to date. Thus there aren't a lot of examples out there yet for people to work off of to improve their own understanding. Once we see some mods using python extensively we'll see more people playing around with it and not just the xml.
LAnkou
Breizh A Tao
well, it doesn't matter how people mod, as long as the mod works...
...However, it is nicer to have some common "habits" and if people take this thread as advice and not as a rule, this is good!!!
By the way, modders listen to people, we are very attentive to what people say (going from "thank you", which is very nice, to "what about doing it in this way?" which can be interesting to get a better mod). Modders release mods for two reason: 1) because we are very nice people with great ideas and total devotion to the community (self-pride here, but a lot of modders are proud of there work, no matter how crap it is and they ARE right!!!) 2) because we like to get others people happy with mods and release a mod that nobody cares/find interresting/think its crap is not what interest us. We want people to enjoy mods, so we design it to get people enjoying it....
i don't see the point arguing on the fact that modders will/won't do some standardisation, but trying to get common habits is a no brainer, we would better try than not!! (by the way, some people, including me, has yet made some remarks about the way a mod is done)
...However, it is nicer to have some common "habits" and if people take this thread as advice and not as a rule, this is good!!!
By the way, modders listen to people, we are very attentive to what people say (going from "thank you", which is very nice, to "what about doing it in this way?" which can be interesting to get a better mod). Modders release mods for two reason: 1) because we are very nice people with great ideas and total devotion to the community (self-pride here, but a lot of modders are proud of there work, no matter how crap it is and they ARE right!!!) 2) because we like to get others people happy with mods and release a mod that nobody cares/find interresting/think its crap is not what interest us. We want people to enjoy mods, so we design it to get people enjoying it....
i don't see the point arguing on the fact that modders will/won't do some standardisation, but trying to get common habits is a no brainer, we would better try than not!! (by the way, some people, including me, has yet made some remarks about the way a mod is done)
deKoven
Chieftain
Hmmm, I think someone has read into (at least) my comments things even I don't subscribe to.
Herewith what I'd like to see in whatever mod I download:
The mod itself.
a readme detailing what, exactly, this mod does and which files it impacts.
The directory structure where this mod is to be placed.
The author's name and contact info so that if I have a need for help a couple years down the road I "may" be able to get it.
I don't see what is so hard about that. You, as the developer, may be perfectly familiar with where to place your creation. Others, not having the same familiarity, will need and should have pointers so as not to lose their way.
Herewith what I'd like to see in whatever mod I download:
The mod itself.
a readme detailing what, exactly, this mod does and which files it impacts.
The directory structure where this mod is to be placed.
The author's name and contact info so that if I have a need for help a couple years down the road I "may" be able to get it.
I don't see what is so hard about that. You, as the developer, may be perfectly familiar with where to place your creation. Others, not having the same familiarity, will need and should have pointers so as not to lose their way.
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