TSG 276 Opening Actions

[vadalaz]

This thread is used to discuss the game's opening decisions and strategies through the first 100 or so turns. Here you can post questions related to the game and share your achievements/anger/frustration/victories while you play.

Quick links: Announcement thread | After actions

- What did you think about before starting the game, what was your approach to this game?
- What tech path did you follow and why?
- What Social Policies did you choose?
- Did you get a religion? What religious beliefs did you pick?

 

[The_Black_Vegetable]

My idea for this map is that a quick finish time should be possible, however I am going to abandon my first attempt. As can be seen from the screenshot, nothing is lost yet (the timing is actually pretty decent, T90 Education), but I've simply bitten off more than I can chew. In general, I find that trying to include war into a science game makes the game a lot more volatile. What went wrong here is that I declared war on Egypt while I still had a declaration of friendship. I took this drastic step since he was building Hagia, and only one religion could still be founded which I really wanted.

I think the art of combining war for a SV is to build a small army at a time when it is not too costly, and do so in a manner that not all other civs hate you. Clearly, that is not what is happening here. I might survive this, but I will probably have to keep building units for a good number of turns (no point really going for education anymore, either), plus all other civs do hate me. I've done some Great Plains maps with war for science in the recent past, but that was on Immortal; perhaps Deity is simply a different beast.

 

[ABigCivFan]

This felt like the longest first 100 turn game, it was a blood bath with 2 AIs being eliminated. I went with Sun God belief to get more food on the wheat, but then soon got converted to Egypt's religion which was pretty good. I was harassing Korea for a long time stealing workers, plunge trade routs. But I stopped when Shaka invaded Korea who was slowed down by me. So I decided to send some units to help Korea, did not want Shaka to take over Korea too easily since his next target would be me. So I fought off Shake along side with Korea for a while, but soon Harun from south west asked me to join his war against Korea, I guess no one liked Sejong. I asked to wait 10 turns, while I moved more units and a Ram near the boarder, and soon piled on Korea, taking his capital which was weakened by Harun. I also took another Korean city from Shaka. Later bribed Monty to attack Egypt, and bribed Harun to turn on Shaka. So I could enjoy some peaceful time to build.

Had 4 cities by turn 56, went Tradition. It was strange that I did not get a single clear barb request from any CS, so was very hard to ally CS the first 100 turns. Running low on culture and faith the whole time. Deity science pace was fast, I actually got some gold from Shaka from peace deal, bought 2 universities. now I think I have generally good idea how to setup a strong first 100 turn econ for a science game, but the next 100 turns will need to figure out what to prioritize.

Turn 78, taking Busan from Shaka.

Turn 100

 

[raider980]

What a wild game! Mine was a bloodbath too. Both Gandhi and Sejong wiped out already. And I think Pacal will soon be joining them.

Before the game I figured I'd use the HA's to protect my civilization so I wouldn't get wiped out early (as can happen on Deity). But then on T3 my warrior found a ruin that upgraded to a Battering Ram so I figured, what the heck, I'd go on offense. Egypt was very close so I went for his capital. Lol, but I am so bad a combat that I lost the BR, a scout and a warrior. But I stayed at war while building HAs. Then Ramses built the GW! I was finally able to take Thebes around T90.

Tech path was to HA's and BR's once it was clear it would be a violent game; then headed for Pikes when I realized it wasn't going to let up. For some reason I went Liberty after opening Tradition. I guess I thought I would have more room to build expos and also I planned on capturing some cities. But I only ended up settling one expo. And despite my 99.9% chance of SiP prediction from the Announcement, I moved west one tile to a hill because I saw it could get Gems, a third unique lux, in range. (However, I didn't realize it wasn't on a river until afterwards, oh well). Somehow I got one of the earliest NC's I've ever had - T88, I guess because I only had to build 2 libraries. So I think I'm doing ok. Did not get a religion; I took culture and faith from Silver and Gold pantheon but it wasn't enough for a religion. That's ok, Ramses has a pretty good one and it spread to me.

The AI's were so feisty this game that even Pacal is violent! He DoW me shortly after I took Thebes and is coming with an impressive army. I think I'll be able to hold him off with all my HAs, two who have logistics (and one of those with range). That's where we stand on T101; I will likely take at least one of Pacal's cities and Monte asked me to go to war against him a few turns ago which I declined. Also, Shaka seems to be sending some Impi Pacal's way too so I fear he is not long for this world. He sholdn't have attacked me, I was ready to be friends with him for the whole game.

 

[ForkOfSpite]

Survived a war! Doing okay despite losing a settler and two or three workers that I stole earlier.

Like Raider, I also considered moving west one tile to get the gems, but I noticed that it wasn't a river tile. Garden in capital seems important, so hoped I could find a reasonable expansion out there (which I did, but it's a bit squeezed for tiles). Four-city Tradition with 35 population at Turn 100. Tradition complete. National College on Turn 87. Workshops up (one more turn for the expansion delayed by losing a settler to Ramesses). Civil Service next turn. In case I forget to mention this in the After Actions thread (not that my time will be relevant), I replayed Turn 87 because I forgot to save.

Found La Venta early - chose against going for a religion because I wasn't 100% certain which pantheon I would take (so couldn't justify putting important granary hammers into a shrine instead). Considered buying a shrine later (while I was building settlers), but decided against it again. Eventually got the fifth pantheon and chose Religious Settlements (15% faster border expansion). Other options at that time were Faith Healers (+30 healing near friendly cities - Ramesses was threatening me at the time), God-King, Monument to the Gods (+15% production ancient/classical wonders - speed up the future national college and national epic), or Religious Idols (+1 culture and faith from gold/silver). If I had gone for the earlier pantheon, I probably would have chosen God of the Open Sky (+1 culture from pastures), but thought that might just make me get an unwanted social policy.

DOW Ramesses on Turn 10 for two easy workers. Picked up two more plus a trade route later. Considered building a couple of battering rams but decided I really didn't want his capital or free expansion. Keeping Memphis could work if I could raze Thebes, but to me, it looked like Thebes would struggle for hammers and Memphis would too without working several pasture tiles that Thebes would desperately need. Plus, those cities were exposed - might be a bad idea with aggressive civs in this game.

Also picked up a worker from Mogadishu (peace one turn later after pillaging a tile). Took a chance with a settler heading north and paid for it when Ramesses arrived with war chariots. Had to sacrifice a warrior when I got around to sending another settler up there, but eventually, I killed enough units for peace. Was hoping to pillage some tiles and maybe re-steal a worker or two, but I saw a horse that I couldn't really handle. Peace on Turn 73 (and saw a pike the next turn).

Diplomacy - DoF with everyone except Pacal (Ramesses offered DoF about 5 or 10 turns after peace). After Shaka took Seoul, bringing him to my border, I gave him a lux for the "We traded recently" boost. He offered DoF soon thereafter. Hope it sticks. I don't trust Harun - he seemed sketchy (Friendly for no reason) after I settled Herakleopous, but I suspect he'll have other problems to handle.

Screenshots

Spoiler :

Turn 10 - Double Steal

Spoiler :

Turn 73 - The Scary Horseman (peace when I saw that)

Spoiler :

Turn 87 - National College

Spoiler :

Turn 100 - Status Report (and First Spy!)

Spoiler :

 

[The_Black_Vegetable]

Lol, but I am so bad a combat that I lost the BR

In my experience, it's not so easy to use a battering ram to take an AI capital. The ram itself is strong enough to take the city, but it can't take any hits from melee units. Hence, you either need 2-3 horse archers to take out the enemy units (which you won't have turn 10), or you need to be lucky enough that the AI sent all of its units to take out a barb camp, which occasionally happens.

So, on Deity, I don't care much for the battering ram upgrade. You might tribute a CS or two if you are lucky, but your unit is poor at scouting and you won't be able to use it offensively for quite a while (you can skip bronze working though), and if you are planning on war then it might save you a few turns. Finally, you could use the ram to capture a city state, but in my opinion that will just slow down a game and make everyone hate you.

 

[vadalaz]

A single BR usually doesn't achieve much, but one tactic I remember using in fast domination games was sending out pairs of BRs. Even if one of them dies, you'll often be able to take a capital and make peace before the AI can recapture. Two rams should also be enough to tribute most CSs and perhaps even get some workers from them, although having Shaka and Monty in the game makes it difficult to maintain the top army score.

I don't know if it's a good tactic in a science game though. A few concerns are: 1) you spend money and production on BRs instead of settlers 2) you delay HAs (and getting Logistics on them) by going Bronze Working first, 3) attacking early means the cities you capture won't have that many buildings; a better time to attack might be a bit later, around T45-50

 

[Megalou]

I was bent on being more aggressive towards the closest AI(s) when it comes to worker steals and other provocations, not just steal from a city state. This resulted in a rare double steal, as the screenshot shows. A prolonged war followed, with endless war chariot suddenly appearing outside Our court. Had it not been for the AIs inability to both move and shoot on the same turn, it would have been impossible not to sign for peace.

Eventually, Thebes was Ours but with a tight margin. I found that the range of the battering ram made it an uncertain choice. The picture below also reveals that I went for an early Oracle, thinking that there was no way that I could postpone it for Rationalism on deity. The policy route was Tradition, Aesthetics starter, then some Patronage.

I made a strange choice for pantheon, faith and culture for silver and gold tiles. I mean, it wasn't bad, but I could have picked culture from the myriad pastures. Working gold and silver hampers growth, as I was well aware. On the other hand I did get the last religion. Yet again, after conquering Egypt I found that they actually had the culture from pastures pantheon, so eventually I sent an inquisitor from Thebes to Attilla's court, suppressing my own religion!

Of course, culture from pastures was perfect for Memphis and Thebes.

When religion came in I chose tithe and the faith for wonders one. Later, I stupidly enhanced this religion with som virtally useless beliefs. Old habits. Anyway, here is the turn 100 situation:

 

[lerrocco]

I know this is not a domination game, but I played Attila a lot while I was learning the domination games. I now always build 2 warriors, not the usual scout, in case I pop a weapons upgrade. the rams are devastating in the early game, but they need melee support.

I am limited for game time again, but I did dive into this game just to look. I found only a few ruins and got maps and barb camp locations, so I returned the warrior home, and found a ruin! Which gave me the ram.

So i went back to Egypt, I also had a double worker steal and the ram took Memphis in one hit. I razed it, maybe this was a mistake but I had 2 concerns. First, captured cities dont get the free city builds from Tradition, second, it had no unique luxuries.

Thebes had 3 warriors defending it. I parked a scout on the hill to the north, and it was remarkably resilient against the lone warrior sent out. I dangled one of the captured workers, and when it wasnt taken put my warrior on top of it. It took 3 ram hits to win the city, luckily I could instant heal after the promotion after the second hit. Lost the warrior and the worker (died when Egypt did). But one competitor out of the way, no buildings and no wonders so early in Thebes, no religion, so maybe not even a wise choice, but curiosity killed the warrior. The archer arrived after the victory, i didnt use it to take Thebes.

I kept playing to T72. I am hopeful the warmongers will annihilate everyone else, while I defend and try for science. But real life does get in the way, this will be a slow game and I dont know I have the skills to win this.

I got a late pantheon, dont expect to get a religion, and I went for culture from pastures. A late and sad attempt to build shrines probably wont work. But I am trying.

By T72 all my cities had the pantheon, which is perfect for a culture boost, I will try and befriend culture CS, while trying for 4 city NC and a decent army to ward off the inevitable attacks. Still no religion, I think there is only 1 more slot free for religions?

 

[Megalou]

First, captured cities dont get the free city builds from Tradition

Right, you don't get monuments, but in Thebes I actually have an "Aqueduct (Free)". Don't know if it was Egypt's freebie or mine, though.

 

[lerrocco]

Right, you don't get monuments, but in Thebes I actually have an "Aqueduct (Free)". Don't know if it was Egypt's freebie or mine, though.

Yes, you are correct. I knew I was close so I just played 2 more turns and finished the Tradition tree and I do have a free aqueduct in Thebes.
I am still unsure whether to take these early cities, they have no buildings, need a courthouse and a monument, minimum and have to deal with unhappiness until the courthouse is built.
Ironically, I am eyeing a similar location for a possible 5th city, though 4 may be enough.

 

[The_Black_Vegetable]

First, captured cities dont get the free city builds from Tradition

In my experience, captured cities only get the buildings if you take the policy after you have already captured the city (don't know if the city needs to be annexed or not, or whether it even needs a courthouse). You typically have the monument policy before you capture or annex, but it would be interesting to try that out some time - if no-one else in this thread is certain about these game mechanics.

 

[Rhodro]

Here's my 100 turn writeup.

Ruins, didn't write it down but i remember 1 scout archer upgrade, 1 culture, and i think 1 faith that helped getting pantheon. Amount of ruins was very low, i wanted to scout around the edge of the map but got stuck a lot between mountains and barb camps. It's also a very cramped map with the Deity AI scouting a lot fast.

Wars
Has been quite eventful. Shaka declared war on Korea, i was opportunistic and also DoWed korea. Shaka captured Busan, and after that I captured Seoul. Seeing shaka's unit quite weak and feeling strong with my 6 horse archers I DoWed Shaka.
Those 2 DoWs i did + captured Seoul was enough to make most other AI denounce me, in particular Arabia and Egypt were gonna be a problem with my army at shaka.
I saw egypt coming with horse archers so i bribed another AI to DoW him. But this only worked for a bit.
While I captured Busan from Shaka, he already had horsemen, which out of the fog managed to kill some of my horse archers.
Then, Arabia, Egypt and India DoWed me. Arabia and Egypt came with a lot of units. I immediately built and bought some more horse archers to defend my capital from egypt. He had very weak tactics so i was able to hold him off.
I made peace with Shaka and sent my first army to Arabia. I had to let Arabia capture Seoul once and then captured it back, razed one of his sattelite cities and then captured his capital.
Seoul has hanging gardens, grows well, annexed and bought a courthouse there.
Mecca has no wonders sadly.
Still at war with egypt, my first army is routing back to take his capital, it has ToA and 2 religious wonders, which I really want for the faith generation, I still have a lot of faith buildings to buy.
In the whole ordeal i think i lost 2 warriors and 4 horse archers. Currently have 8 horse archers, 1 battering ram, 1 crossbowman (upgraded scout), 1 horseman.
With egypt capital I will end up with 7 cities. Not sure if i will go for more, maybe i will try to keep bribing shaka to keep the other AI in check. Other AI hate my guts though, except monty. Not sure if i want to make it even worse by warring even more.

Growth seem pretty good with 53 pop currently.
Religion: I didn't find the religious CS until later so no fast pantheon. I picked culture from pastures. My religion is totally overtaken by Arabia's, which I like because it has pagoda's, monastaries, desert folklore and sacred sites. My faith engine is very bad so far though so only just bought 1 pagoda. I have captured a full prophet from egypt, thats gonna be planted for faith, mecca had 1 planted already, and i'm eying egypt's capital with some faith wonders to hopefully quickly buy more pagoda's.

Social policies, just full tradition so far, with monarchy last, because i was building petra. This caused a bit of happiness issues for a bit.
Science: focus on horse archers + petra. Then national college and civil service, also colloseums, sailing and battering ram somewhere in the mix. Now first workshops, then universities.

Spoiler :

 

[sebtanic]

Spoiler :

View attachment 746790
View attachment 746791

Wow, those screenshots look extra dusty!

 

[sebtanic]

So I decided to go warring. Never built any settler.

Initial build order: Scout, warrior (hoping to get a ram upgrade but it never happened), granary, monument, shrine (bought), then Horse Archers and a couple of rams. Later I made a library and barracks when I was 3 or 4 units over my maximum. Never built a worker. I stole them all from Egypt and later from Zulu.

Pantheon: Culture from pastures obviosuly. No religion so far, but Islam spread to my capital.
Policies: Honor opener, Tradition opener, left Honor, right Honor.
(I probably should have gotten the Tradition opener first, since there weren't that many barbs to kill initially.)

Ruins: culture, 65g, Pottery, map, pop, camp

t16 I DOWed Egypt to steal a worker. Then proceeded to train my HAs on them until they all had logistics and range, then started to go after their cities.
t83 completed Statue of Zeus
t83 captured Thebes (had ToA)

I bribed Shaka to DOW Korea, then proceeded to DOW Shaka who had 2 cities dangerously close south of Attila's court

t91 Oracle -> finished Honor
t91 Shaka captured Seoul for me, which had Great Wall (meaning I wouldn't have to DOW Korea)
t95 Shaka eliminated Korea for me Thanks Shaka! You don't know it yet but you're next
t98 took Seoul from Shaka (Great Wall and Stonehenge)

Pointy sticks, eh? We will see about that!

I might be a bit cocky right now because you never know on Deity, but so far the war is going very well for me. I'll have to be wary about not falling too far behind in tech though. My science output isn't that great... Think I'll focus on that next, and let the HAs do their job as long as they are effective.

 

[Rhodro]

Wow, those screenshots look extra dusty!

In have f.lux installed and it was evening, so the colours were shifted to red!

 

[sebtanic]

In have f.lux installed and it was evening, so the colours were shifted to red!

makes sense! it fits the great plains theme perfectly