Unit combat and health

[grahamiam]

Since there will be fewer units than in previous revisions of Civ, I am interested in how the new system is being implemented. Reviewing the info put out so far, I've come across the following interesting quotes:

page line -> http://www.civfanatics.com/civ4/info/#Combat]

The amount of damage a unit does to another unit is now out of a scale of 100, even though that's more or less hidden from the user. The amount of damage a unit does is relative to its different strengths. So now when a spearman attacks a tank, he may hit three times, but that's only going to take off a quarter of the tank's hit points. Meanwhile, a tank hitting a spearman only has to hit him once or twice, and he's gone entirely.

Medic I Heals Unit in the same tile; Extra 10% Damage per Turn
Medic II Heals Units in adjacent tiles; Extra 10% Damage per Turn

Units’ strength will be represented by the number of units. At full strength, a unit will have three units, and when it takes damage it loses a single unit until it is destroyed.

Ok, based on the above, it seems that the unit’s health may be difficult to determine via a WYSWYG approach.

For instance, a 4hp swordsman attacks a horseman and wins, but sustains 30% damage. Now, since 4hp = 4 figurines, and I’ve suffered 30% damage, I would actually see only 3 figurines on the screen. However, by looking at the screen, I’d only know that my unit health was somewhere between 51% and 75%. I’d have no way of knowing that it was actually 70%.

If a “Medic I” unit was on the same tile, the next turn I would heal to 80%, and I would see 4 figurines. Now, I could guess that I’m between 85 and 76% healthy, based on what I see and what was known the turn before. However, I would never be sure what my unit’s health was, and if I’m tracking 10 such units, it would probably be very difficult to tell who was ready for the next combat and who needed to heal more. Seems to me like there should be more info that could tell the player exactly how “healthy” a unit is, rather than relying on the “figurine” visual system.

Has anyone seen anything from Firaxis that shows additional unit data? Screenies, interviews, etc?

 

[Aks K]

I have also been wondering about this.

Now, since 4hp = 4 figurines, and I’ve suffered 30% damage, I would actually see only 3 figurines on the screen.

I understood it as each figurine had its own "health bar", but I could be mistaken. That is why I would expect your 4 figurines not to regroup after battle.

To me medics helps healing damage to figurines (not the hole unit itself), but how do I recover lost figurines if this assumption is true? Is this only possible in towns or fortresses? - This would be fine for me.

I like the idea of the damage being hidden to other players, but not to one self. It makes no sense that you can order your unit to attack without knowing if it is partically dead already.

Aks K

 

[grahamiam]

I understood it as each figurine had its own "health bar", but I could be mistaken. That is why I would expect your 4 figurines not to regroup after battle.

that's a possibility I had not considered I guess I'm still stuck in Civ3 mode

 

[Arkalius]

I think the idea is that each unit does a certain amount of damage to another unit. Like every unit has 100 health. When the spearman hits the tank it may only do like 10 damage, but the tank would do 60 damage per hit to the spearman.

The men of the unit are a simple graphic representation of how much health the unit has left. As a unit heals, more men would show up in the unit to indicate it's increased health status.

At least that's how I'd interpret it.

 

[grahamiam]

I think the idea is that each unit does a certain amount of damage to another unit. Like every unit has 100 health. When the spearman hits the tank it may only do like 10 damage, but the tank would do 60 damage per hit to the spearman.

The men of the unit are a simple graphic representation of how much health the unit has left. As a unit heals, more men would show up in the unit to indicate it's increased health status.

At least that's how I'd interpret it.

This is somewhat how I interpret it as well

Throw out the tank-vs-spear arguement as it's not seen often (if you face this often, then you are not playing at a high enough level ). Take into account a combat more often seen, like a sword vs a spear or a tank vs an infantry.

In the sword vs spear scenario, it's often likely in C3C to have the winner down to less than full health (ie, 1 or 2 hps).

Now, according to Civ4 info, this will be displayed graphically via "guys" in your unit. At 2hp, you'll have 2. However, if the damage is based on a percentage, then your scaling is pretty broad. For a 3hp unit, 1 guy could equal a health of 1% to 33%, 2 guys is 34% to 66%, and 3 guys is 67% to 100%. So, if I kill a spearman with a sword and sustain 60% damage, I'll be at 40% health, but still show 2 guys in the unit. If I know he's only 40% healthy, then I'll probably rest him rather than press on during the next turn. Also, I'll know that it'll take 6 turns to heal him completely (with a local Medic I unit) and can prioritize other units in the area to cover.

If I don't have this info (ie, % damaged), but instead have this damage represented sololy by the "guys" showing, then I'm really in-the-dark and will have a hard time determining what to do (ie, press on, hold ground, re-inforce the position, etc).

 

[Urederra]

If I know he's only 40% healthy, then I'll probably rest him rather than press on during the next turn. Also, I'll know that it'll take 6 turns to heal him completely (with a local Medic I unit) and can prioritize other units in the area to cover.
.

Note that a medic I unit heals an EXTRA 10 %. So I suppose that without a medic I unit the units also heal, but at a lower rate. So, you won't need 6 turns to heal a 40 % damage unit, but less than that.

It also could depend on where you are, like in Civ III, where, without the Battelfield Medicine units don't heal in enemy's territory, but they heal in your territory.

So, let's suppose that you have a unit which is 70 % damaged and it is in your territory, let's also suppose that just because it is in your territory, it heals a 25 % per turn. That would mean that in 3 turns it will be at 100 %. But if you have a medic unit, it heals at 35 % rate per turn, so in 2 turns it will be 100 % healed. Just guessing.

 

[grahamiam]

ok, I understand that. but how do I tell how healthy a unit is via the WYSWYG system? How do I tell the difference between a 3hp, 75% healed unit (will show 3 "guys") and a 3hp, 100% healed unit?

 

[Aussie_Lurker]

Actually, I think that you should not know exactly how many HP your units have left-beyond the # of men you have left standing in your unit. My reasoning is that HP represent more than the numbers left alive. It also represents things like equipment quality/reliability and general morale-something you often can't tell just be looking at your division, batallion-what have you. I also wouldn't be suprised if damage done-per hit-was based on 'relative strengths', rather than absolute strength. So two modern units would probably only do a small amount of damage to each other per hit, wheras a modern unit versus a middle ages unit might result in the latter unit getting 'torn a new one'-so to speak .
Hope that makes sense.

Yours,
Aussie_Lurker.

 

[henry k c]

The out of 100 hp system is just another way civ 4 is turning into trun based Rise of Nations. This system will lead to confusion, not knowing if your unit is 50 or 74% healed. I hope there is a way you can tell besides looking at the units.

 

[Dale]

I'm sure Firaxis would have a readout of your unit's abilities (and strength/hp's/etc) when you click on them.

I mean, how else are you going to know what promotions you've given a unit unless they have an "information box"?

Dale

 

[remconius]

In the civ3 system, when a tank attacked a spearman (both units having 3 hps) with tank attacking for 16, spearman defending for 2 (with bonusses being 4). When the tank attacks it has a 25% chance of losing. It's all probability and you could lose three in a row. The tank lost all three hitpoints and dies

The way I understand it, a unit now has a single attack strenth and number of hitpoints.

(speculation
So a tank might have power 25, hitpoints 75. Whereas a Spearman might have 10 power and hitpoints 30. Let's say the spearman wins three attacks in a row, it hits the tank for 30, whereas a single attack of the tank would nearly wipe out the spearman. The spearman would need to win 8 strikes in a row to completely kill the tank, with maybe one loss (can still happen ;-)).

In this example, when tanks or spearmen fight eachother it is whoever wins three attacks will win, so that's more balanced. Except that units might have been promoted or have decisive strength.

 

[grahamiam]

@Aussie Lurker: Many thanks for your response. However, you and I disagree in regards to evaluating unit health. I have never been in the military or studied military history, so what you state may be true. However, for gaming purposes, I personally prefer to know the exact health of each and every unit, especially since the quantity of them that will be in the field will be much less.

@Henry: me too

@Dale: I hope so, but I wasn't sure, that's why I started this thread I thought maybe some of the people who have analyzed the screenie's may have seen something.

@remconius: I am not refering to tanks vs spearman combat and it's result. I'm trying to understand how, with the information provided, we will know the health of a unit. I am concerned that the "G" in the WYSWYG means "GUESS" not "GET", at least in terms of unit health

 

[george_manet]

Personally, I agree with Aussie Lurker. If you don't like having to guess the exact strength of your unit, you can rest it following every little scrap it gets into. But...

Look at the picture on the 1st page of the screenshot section titled "fort". The unit highlighted looks like a prophet or a missionary- in either case, it is not a military unit. Look at the indicator beneath him (or whatever that thing's called), which appears to be 4 yellow balls spinning around him. Okay, now look at any shot of a highlighted military unit, and... the indicator's different! (and it's much more complex, too)

Yes, I'm theorising that you will be able to read your unit's strength exactly (or more exactly than 1/4, 2/4, etc) by looking at your unit's indicator. That's why the military units (who have HP) have a far more complex indicator than the non-military, non-HP units. If this is true, it would mean that you could know the exact strength of your units but not your opponents', and you could only know yours before you've moved.

At the very least it's interesting.

 

[grahamiam]

Look at the picture on the 1st page of the screenshot section titled "fort". The unit highlighted looks like a prophet or a missionary- in either case, it is not a military unit. Look at the indicator beneath him (or whatever that thing's called), which appears to be 4 yellow balls spinning around him. Okay, now look at any shot of a highlighted military unit, and... the indicator's different! (and it's much more complex, too)

Yes, I'm theorising that you will be able to read your unit's strength exactly (or more exactly than 1/4, 2/4, etc) by looking at your unit's indicator. That's why the military units (who have HP) have a far more complex indicator than the non-military, non-HP units. If this is true, it would mean that you could know the exact strength of your units but not your opponents', and you could only know yours before you've moved.

At the very least it's interesting.

Thanks for pointing that out!

I quickly looked thru the CFC pics to see if I missed something. The only screenie I came across that shows a unit selected is as follows:

I do not see all the items you listed, but that is not a suprise as this pic is zoomed out and, of course, not animated. I will have to look at the video's closely again. Which ones were you looking at? Links or posting the screens would be greatly appreciated!

here are the ones george was refering:

prophet near the "fort"

Barbarian archers attacking Shanghai

Note: the above are barbarians. I could not find anything showing a full view of a normal civ's unit.

 

[REX GRACCHVS]

does anyone remember civ 2, each unit had a fire power rating and a hp rating.

eg: phalanx: 1,2,1, 1hp,1fp
archer: 3,2,1, 1hp, 1fp
musketeer: 3,3,1 2hp, 1fp
armour: 10,5,3, 3hp, 1 fp
battleship: 12,12,3 3hp, 2fp



the hp was multiplied by 10 to get a true value so an armour unit had 30 hp, and did 1 damage and an archer had 10 hp and 1fp while a battleship had 30 hp and did 2 damage

 

[Jaybe]

Rex G, do some more reading of the info already released. Your "suggestion" is already covered, and from a "higher source."

 

[KrikkitTwo]

REX, unfortunately that system added unnecessary complication to the combat system... all of the combat numbers but one should be the same for a unit (because ther true strength was determined by multiplying attack or Defense times the hp and fp
so the real combat effect was

eg: phalanx: 1,2,1
archer: 3,2,1
musketeer: 6,6,1
armour: 30,15,3
battleship: 72,72,3

Which would have given the same results (giving every unit 10 hp and 1 fp...) and would be easier to tell the relative strengths of the units (ie attacking armour 15* better than defending phalanx w/o bonuses)

Hopefully, the 'Strength' value refers ONLY to how much damage is done (since that is confirmed), and the number of HP and the chance of doing damage are constant. (or perhaps dependent on experience, upgrades)

 

[george_manet]

Sorry, I wasn't sure how to post the screen shots. Here is what I was talking about:

As you can see, the prophet is highlighted by four yellow balls. But here are some highlighted war elephants:

Note that the yellow balls have been replaced by a strangely complex indicator. Here is another:

I'm starting to think that I was wrong- that the unit indicator is not related to HP. It's just very bizarre and complex looking, compared to the indicator used for the prophet. Maybe some guy at Firaxis had nothing to do one afternoon, so he doodled that thing and it somehow made it into the game... and chances are that much of what we see in these images won't even be in the final version. I just find it strange, and somehow quite fascinating.

 

[grahamiam]

well, that's ok this is all speculation and I'm sure it'll be different than Civ3 (and probably for the better). I'm just trying to understand the concept with what has been published, which may or may not be possible. It'd be nice if one of those Firaxians could post over here, like they do at 'poly

Well, one thing that should be noted is the little green balls in the banner of those troops. That represents, I think, how many units you have in your stack. So the highlighted stack in your last pic has 5 seperate units. The one next to him seems to have 3, 2 at a "green" status, and a third at a "red" status. Most likely similar to past games where the "red" status indicates heavily damaged and green indicates relatively healthy.

White balls probably is for the enemy or allies, such that you know how many units there are in the stack, but don't know thier health.

 

[admiral-bell]

this is wierd I think we'll just have to read the manual