Warlords Capitulation

[Pitboss]

I wondered if it was normal that a nation that capitulated, later declares itself to be a free nation again
It doesn't seem to make any sence, since that nation only got one city left, and had a serious technological gap.

Alpha Centauri also has the surrender option, but in that game a nation never seemed to come back on it's decission to undo the surrender, untill it had grown sufficiently strong. But even then it didn't happen so often.( Since both games came from Firaxis ... I thought there would be some logic in there. )

So is this a bug, or just a deranged AI ?

 

[ohcrapitsnico]

Both. Actually I only had one city(though I had a permanent alliance with another small nation), Asoka was twice the size of me and offered to be my vassal.

 

[Older than Dirt]

How could that be? Is my manual wrong?

 

[Pitboss]

Both. Actually I only had one city(though I had a permanent alliance with another small nation), Asoka was twice the size of me and offered to be my vassal.

I'll post it in the bug section then

Sometimes the AI uses the vasal state to escape a war that is going badly for 'him'. Perhaps your permanent ally was stronger, and Asoka saw it as a way to stop the war. Or he wanted to get protection from your ally, but not directly, because of 'Worst ennemy' story ?

edit : ... and if it was ment this way, why can't the human player do the same thing ? seems like the AI always has more options then the human player

 

[GoodSarmatian]

A vassal can become an independent state when
a.) He refuses to supply you with a reseource. This maens war.
b.) He has at least half as much population and land as his master. Did Monty conquer some cities from your enemies ?
c.) He has lost half of his land since the capitulation. Did he get invaded, or are his cities under cultural pressure.

 

[Pitboss]

Does all of that also count for a vasal by default after it's capitulation ?

a) it would seem unlogical that he could refuse anything, since he's basicly said that he surrendered
b) He didn't conquer any cities, and is left with only one after the capitulation.
c) He hasn't lost his one city, otherwhise he would've been whipped out.
But he was indeed under cultural pressure.

But even so, doesn't CIV understand the difference between a vasal state, and a capitulated state ? The first one can protest, the second one can't.

 

[GoodSarmatian]

I think it all counts for capitulation, and it is quite logical.

If you push them too hard they will fight, even if they get get destroyed. Has something to do with self respect.
If they become strong enough to break free might give it a try. If they lose more and more land you're not doing your job. You are the master and have the duty to protect your vassal.
I guess in your case some tiles flipped and Monty lost half of his land over time.

 

[Pitboss]

An AI with a sence of self respect
Well their is a first for everything I guess

But it surely wasn't because I didn't protect them or anything alike.
Since, no one dared to attack me, their never was a war against him either.

Indeed, I had a city above his position that was just at the border of his influence zone. But I felt it might be a start for riots, or a food problem in that city, so I let an artist build a master piece and at the same time Monte lost half of his tiles.

Their is another thing I noticted with vasaling under capitulation.
The AI doesn't have to conquer almost every city before the other player proposes or allows himself to be capitulated on.

 

[Proteus]

The AIs in my current game do it very often.
Saladin became my vassal because of his own free will
(well, we had a short war and, one turn after declaring peace, he offered his nation as vassal)
a couple of turns later, he broke free from his vassalization (and I chose to stay at peace with him, although I had the choice to declare war).
SHortly thereafter he became vassal of Brennus, but a couple of turns later, he, again, broke free from vassalization.
Mansa Musa also became vassal to Brennus (out of his free will) and later declared himself independend again.

It seems to me that if they have the choice vassals often seem to rethink their decision to become vassals.
And obviously they have the choice if hey have either at least 50% of he land of their master, 50% of the people their master has, or have lost 50% of the land hey possessed when they became vassalized.

 

[Dida]

There are two kinds of vassalage, the first is when you beat up the civ so bad in a war that he surrenders to you as part of the peace deal. This kind of war vassal can only break free if
1) they lost more than 50% of their land under your protection
2) they are at least half your size
3) they refused to pay tribution, this means war.
You can demand tribute once per turn, I believe.

the second is peaceful vassal, meaning the AI offer itself as vassal willingly. They have the choice to remain in vassallage or break free every 10 turns. It seems that, you can only demand tribute from them for a single time.

 

[Pitboss]

It seems to me that if they have the choice vassals often seem to rethink their decision to become vassals.
And obviously they have the choice if hey have either at least 50% of he land of their master, 50% of the people their master has, or have lost 50% of the land hey possessed when they became vassalized.

CIV has replaced the alliance option by the vassalage state for the AI, without to much thought it would seem

There are two kinds of vassalage, the first is when you beat up the civ so bad in a war that he surrenders to you as part of the peace deal. This kind of war vassal can only break free if
1) they lost more than 50% of their land under your protection
2) they are at least half your size
3) they refused to pay tribution, this means war.
You can demand tribute once per turn, I believe.

But when you've got the first kind of vassalage, their shouldn't be any way for them to return as free states in the game ... it's kinda like shooting someone in the head (don't try this at home ) and seeing how that person would just continue like nothing had happend .... it just can't be ...

 

[Dida]

CIV has replaced the alliance option by the vassalage state for the AI, without to much thought it would seem


But when you've got the first kind of vassalage, their shouldn't be any way for them to return as free states in the game ... it's kinda like shooting someone in the head (don't try this at home ) and seeing how that person would just continue like nothing had happend .... it just can't be ...

I don't understand, why should they not have the option to be free? The way it is, it is extremely unlikely for a civ so beaten up to come back as a free state.

 

[Pitboss]

Because, by the current rules every nation that has one city left, and that looses to much tiles will switch back. Besides what's the point of surrendering, if you can undo it ...

They should bring that option from previous CIV games, where civilizations roze again when the capital of the conqueror was taken.

 

[GoodSarmatian]

And why should a leader offer to become a vassal when he knows he'll never be free again ?

 

[suspendinlight]

They should bring that option from previous CIV games, where civilizations roze again when the capital of the conqueror was taken.

Check into the Revolution modpack by jdog5000. It's pretty good.