Was the Germanic tribes victory over the Roman armies really a victory, or a defeat?

[sas]

Was the Germanic tribes victory over the Roman armies really a victory, or a defeat? Did it really pay of for the germans and the world?

We're having this discussion at historic battles. What do you think?

 

[insurgent]

It was a success since it deterred the Romans from advancing further into Germany. It stopped the Romans in their tracks, and forced the Roman expansion to happen elsewhere. So yes, a victory. Could be compared to the US in Vietnam or the Russians in Afghanistan...

 

[sas]

Except that the Germanic tribes sacked Rome, something neither the Afghans nor the Viernameese could But i agree there can be drawn paralels.

 

[Loaf Warden]

The Germanic tribes sacked Rome, yes, but they eventually absorbed its culture, much like conquerors of China always do. Charlemagne was Germanic, but he was crowned Emperor of the Romans. And the empire he made had the Roman Church as its church, and a government and institutions that were more Roman than Germanic. And though it comprised mainly Germany throughout its history, it was known as the Holy Roman Empire instead of anything with the word 'German' or some such in the name. So I'd say those bloody Romans won out in the end, because their culture survived while the native culture of the Germanic peoples died out.

 

[insurgent]

Oh, I thought you meant the Battle of the Teutoburger Wald (9 A.D.), where the Germans defeated the legions of Varus. That stopped the Romans in their tracks. And it had resemblance with the Vietnam and Aghanistan wars...
You mean the barbarian attacks against Rome? Well, I don't know whether that was a victory... Hmm...

 

[Hitro]

I'm not really sure which victory you mean, if it is the Varus battle that certainly was a victory in the sense of keeping freedom and independence (in the sense of the time).
Later important parts of the Roman's archievements were "absorbed" but to say the Roman's culture survived is nonsense, their culture unfortunately went down and Christianity became the religion of the Germanic tribes and the Empire they formed, which resulted in the Dark Ages. In fact I'd say European culture and even more science stagnated for almost 1000 years.

Btw, considering the name, in German it is often called "Heiliges Römisches Reich Deutscher Nation" ("Holy Roman Empire of German Nation"), the German nation part was as far as I know added in the 14th or 15th century, before that it just referred to the church, not to the people(s).

 

[insurgent]

I think he refers to the barbarian invasions in the late Roman history.

 

[sas]

I guess the question was somewhat unclear.

I was indeed refering to the "barbarian" invasions in the late Roman history.

From a Roman perspective, the Germaic tribes where seen as barbarians. Allthough by the 1st or 2nd century AD there was not much of an technologically differense between the Romans and Germanic tribes. This was as a result of the Germans started using Roman inventions and ideas.

So in a way, Loaf Warden has a point. The roman culture did survive event when its armies didnt.

 

[insurgent]

The Roman culture lived and died with the Byzantine Empire, only to be revived in Europe during the Rennaissance. But I don't see why the victories of the Germanic tribes shouldn't be considered as such, since most of the Roman culture was very much a benefit for us North Europeans.
What I think would have been more interesting is how things would have evolved if the Christian Roman Empire had survived...

 

[Lucky]

Charlemagne wasn´t Germanic though, he was Gaul (Frank, French). His empire was centered around the later France. And he was crowned King of the Franks.
And the Franks are NOT a Germanic tribe.

So, taking him into account does not fit well into argueing whether or not the battle of the Teutoburger Wald was a victory. That also was over 800 years after that battle.

The battle was a victory since it denied Romans access to Northern and Eastern territories and it solidified the northern border of the Roman empire.
After the fall of Rome, which was not achieved merely by Germanic tribes but constant attacks by Slav tribes as well (although the Vandals later actually conquered Rome), Germanic tribes spread over Europe.
So I don´t see a reason not to call it a victory.

 

[insurgent]

I don't think sas included Teutoburger Wald, it was just that I misunderstood him...

He means the barbarian invasions that destroyed Rome...

 

[Hitro]

Lucky, I agree with all you said except for one thing:
For all I know the Franks are a Germanic tribe. Please explain that.

 

[Switch625]

Originally posted by Lucky
And the Franks are NOT a Germanic tribe.

Never thought I'd ever disagree with you on a point of history, but I must. The Franks were a Germanic tribe. Here is a link to some info.

A quote from the site:

The Franks were one of the many Germanic tribes that crossed the Roman Empire's northern frontier to invade and then settle in Roman territory in the fifth century. Without leaving their homeland, the Germanic Franks gradually expanded into northern Gaul where they played only a minor role until they were led by the warrior chieftain Clovis (r. 481/482 - 511).

 

[insurgent]

Celts and Gauls (Gallus) are two words for the same people, right?

 

[Loaf Warden]

The Gauls were a specific Celtic tribe, or possibly group of tribes. All Gauls were Celts, but not all Celts were Gauls.

As for what the Franks were, I quote the opening sentence to the article on them in the Microsoft Encarta Encyclopedia, 2002 edition: "Franks, group of Germanic tribes that, about the middle of the 3rd century AD, dwelt along the middle of the lower Rhine river." (Italics mine.)

And my comments were not about Teutoburger Wald. I was saying that, yes, the Germanic peoples destroyed the Western Roman Empire, but once civilization in that part of the world recovered from the blow, it was the Roman civilization, albeit in new forms, that was dominant. The Germanic peoples eventually forgot their old ways and took on Roman-flavored systems, and I was using Charlemagne as a piece of evidence; he was a Germanic ruler who considered himself Emperor of the Romans, as did all his successors in what eventually became the Holy Roman Empire.

As another piece of evidence, I could say that though the modern English--and therefore the Founding Fathers of the U.S.--are descended more from Germanic peoples (Anglo-Saxons and Normans, the latter being a type of French-speaking Viking) than they are from Romans, our governmental and legal systems are nevertheless derived from those of the Romans. We've lost our old Germanic ways and now live under a system derived from the ones the Romans created. (I say we lost our Germanic ways because I personally am descended from the Germanic barbarians, and not from Romans. So I am one of the ones whose ancestors lost their ways and took on the Roman, even though the Romans themselves never conquered them.)

But perhaps I have abandoned the scope of the original question, and pontificated at too great a length on something irrelevant. If so, then I apologize. But sas has already clarified that the question was not about Teutoburger Wald, but about the barbarian invasions later on, so I don't really think that I have.

 

[gerryandersson]

I think that the germanic tribes
got what Germany always wanted (until 1945 i hope) sins the founding of the German nation, an empire.
I think that the germanic hunger fore empire started when
they won the first battles aginst the Romans, then
the strongest empire in the known world.

When they won their empire in the remnents of
Rome, it and its Imperial ambisons lived on in the
Germanic people. Rome (I think) did not die until 1945.

 

[Hitro]

Don't confuse the Germanic tribes with what is today Germany. Many others also descent from Germanic tribes. The most "successful" tribe in terms of World Conquest have certainly been the Anglo-Saxons, and last time I checked they weren't part of Germany.

 

[Damien]

It was a military conquest but a cultural defeat.

Only 100,000 Ostrogoths conquered Italy.

The Germanic tribes were not so numerous after all.

They took the latin culture and,like any immigrant,brought new elements-the wedding ring was brought by those tribes for example-but were already assimilated when they invaded the RE.

Ulfilas had already converted many Goths and designed the runic scripture for em.

Moreover,Germans already had the control of the RE since the end of the 2nd century;german soldiers chose emperors with coups.

Those who were skilled fled before the Germanics tribes and Western Europe became a peasant society.

 

[gerryandersson]

Hitro, im taking about the germanic people of Germany.
I know that far from all of the germanic people are Germans.
Sweds, Dans, Norwegans, Austrians, Swiss and menny
others are allso Germanic.

 

[Damien]

What Hitro meant was that today's germans have nothing to do with germans 1600 years ago.