Was the Germanic tribes victory over the Roman armies really a victory, or a defeat?

[gerryandersson]

No maby not Damien, but the hunger fore a German empire
have existed sins the fall of the Holy Roman Empire as
a contry.

 

[Magnus]

It was as much Roman self-destruction as it was a Germanic victory. Rome was gonna fall regardless, the Germans just hastened the decline.

I also don't believe Teutoburger Wald made that huge a difference - most Germans that arrived to ruin Rome after the 3rd Century originated from East of the Elbe anyway.

 

[Lucky]

Originally posted by Hitro
Lucky, I agree with all you said except for one thing:
For all I know the Franks are a Germanic tribe. Please explain that.

Well, you are right. But I was more referring to the fact that the Gaul population was not of Germanic origin. After mixing with the Roman conquerers, part of them, together with several Germanic tribes, including the so called Frankish tribe, later became the Franks that controlled the areas of France and Germany.
Charlemagne united all Germanic and non-Germanic tribes still settling in Western and Middle Europe in the Frankish Kingdom, later christened Holy Roman Empire.
At that time, which I was referring to, the aristocratic part of the Empire was only made up by a minority of "real" Germanic leaders. So the Franks of that time could not totally be described as Germanic anymore, that was my point, that Charlemagne wasn´t really Germanic.
Later kings and emperors of the Holy Roman Empire were on the other hand (Otto I., II.).
And even later, when the former empire split up even more, the new French people did NOT consider themselves as Germanic, the German kingdoms and the English empire did, on the other hand.

The French people are a total mix of original Roman ancestry but mixed with lot´s of Germanic origin and not to forget, Viking, or better known as Norman origin.

 

[Hitro]

Originally posted by Lucky
Well, you are right. But I was more referring to the fact that the Gaul population was not of Germanic origin. After mixing with the Roman conquerers, part of them, together with several Germanic tribes, including the so called Frankish tribe, later became the Franks that controlled the areas of France and Germany.
Charlemagne united all Germanic and non-Germanic tribes still settling in Western and Middle Europe in the Frankish Kingdom, later christened Holy Roman Empire.
At that time, which I was referring to, the aristocratic part of the Empire was only made up by a minority of "real" Germanic leaders. So the Franks of that time could not totally be described as Germanic anymore, that was my point, that Charlemagne wasn´t really Germanic.
Later kings and emperors of the Holy Roman Empire were on the other hand (Otto I., II.).
And even later, when the former empire split up even more, the new French people did NOT consider themselves as Germanic, the German kingdoms and the English empire did, on the other hand.

The French people are a total mix of original Roman ancestry but mixed with lot´s of Germanic origin and not to forget, Viking, or better known as Norman origin.

Correct, what you said shows once more how stupid racial thinking is in general.

 

[GaryNemo]

There were many invasions of Italy, and many times the Romans crossed the Rhine and stomped the "Germans". The first time the Germans scared the Romans ****less was in the time of the great Roman general Marius, say 80BC. A horde had advanced into Italy, then backed off, Marius was elected Consul several years in a row, and with his Lt Sulla, drove the Germans out.

Marius was Uncle Marius to the Julius Caesar we all know. Caesar has a nice description of his bridge across the Rhine in his book Commentaries on War. And Caesar's nephew Augustus first established the policy of keeping the Rhine as the Roman boundary, not trying to conquor across it. A later emperor Diocletian kept this policy. The Germans were simply too much trouble.

Magnus seems right, the Romans suffered from self-destruction -- the rule of the nation by the army was the cause of the Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire, according to Gibbon...