Why can't I build musketmen?

[themoffster]

Look at the save - I have two saltpeter resources (one a colony and the other has a city on top of it).
Its about 10 turns I can't build them now - what's wrong?
It's a Monarch game.

 

[Game_Addy]

If you're playing as the dutch, i think your UU keeps you from making pikemen and musketmen, but I could be wrong.
aren't Swiss Mercinaries a 2.5.1, while Musketmen are 1.4.1?

Michael

EDIT: thanks for the corrections

 

[Doc Tsiolkovski]

Swissies are 1.4.1 for 30sp, Muskets are 2.4.1 for 60sp - why would you EVER want to build Muskets?

(Technically, the Dutch can build Muskets, if they lack iron)

 

[thetrooper]

Swiss Mercenary: 1.4.1 (30 shields). Musketman: 2.4.1 (60 shields).

Edit: too slow

 

[themoffster]

Thanks folks.
I thought it was that, but the extra attack point might make the muskets available.

 

[Mathias]

The real reason:

Musketman upgrades to Swiss Mercenary

 

[TheAlakazam]

don't you need the scientific advance of gunpowder in order to build musketman?

 

[Mathias]

Yes. You also need Gunpowder to see the saltpeter resources, which themoffster said he has two of.

 

[warpstorm]

The real reason:

Musketman upgrades to Swiss Mercenary

And this is the proper thing to do (even though it seems counter-intuitive). It was done so that the AI doesn't waste lots of moola "upgrading" to musketmen (which it would do). The attack point is not worth the gold to upgrade since you should never be attacikng with them anyways. During testing I was one of the people who pushed for this change, so I remember the details.

 

[Ansar]

Actually, its simple really.

Let me explain with the Hoplite.

Greek Hoplite is the replacement for the Spearman.
Pikeman and Hoplite have the same defensive value.
You cant upgrade Hoplite into Pikes because the game doesent want you makin a mistake.

But its different with the SM , SM replaces the Pikeman, even though it has the defense of a Musket, so to stop you losing money by upgrading, you cant upgrade those guys until Rifleman because its the next on highest defense.

By the way, do Rifleman require any resources at all?

EDIT: Whoops, wrote Joplite, fixed it.

 

[TheAlakazam]

You need to have either pikeman, impi from zulu, or hopilite from greek. You then need to know the technology of gunpowder (which is what i got from the previous quotes, thanz Mathias). You then need the resource saltpeter. Now you can build musketman.

If you are french, you can build musketeer instead of musketman, which is one point on attack higher than a musketman but both of them take the same basic turns to be built.

 

[Ansar]

No, the Zulu Impi does not replace the Pikeman because its defense value is 2.

 

[TheAlakazam]

No, the Zulu Impi does not replace the Pikeman because its defense value is 2.

Well, both Impi and Pikeman may upgrade to Musketman, same as a Hopilite. But since only Zulu can have Impi, this civ will not be able to access Hopilite, which is from Greek. I don't know about if you can really have both Musketman and Impi if you are playing as Zulu, I mean, I thought I had F-15 as well as Jet Fighter when I was playing American. The only thing is that the two are distinct units, or, you can build them at the same time.

Correct me if I am wrong. Please...

 

[Empiremaker]

If you are french, you can build musketeer instead of musketman, which is one point on attack higher than a musketman but both of them take the same basic turns to be built.

InMusketeers are 2(8)/5/1, with a 0 range bombardment. The attack of a musket is 2 and a musketeer is 2.

With the Impi you can test by playing a game, and trying to upgrade to pikes or look in the editor and look under Impi.

 

[madman1981]

Do the unique units upgrade later? Or do you have to build new ones once riflemen etc becomes available?

 

[Steve2000]

This is one of the reasons I LOVE the Dutch. You save a ton of money because your swiss mercs are the top defensive unit for thousands of years.

Also if you are USA you build F-15 INSTEAD of jet fighter. You can build regular fighters though, because those come from flight back in the industrial age.

 

[Doc Tsiolkovski]

Actually, its simple really.

....You cant upgrade Hoplite into Pikes because the game doesent want you makin a mistake.

But its different with the SM , SM replaces the Pikeman, even though it has the defense of a Musket, so to stop you losing money by upgrading, you cant upgrade those guys until Rifleman because its the next on highest defense.

Actually, the game is not so nice to care for you potentially making a mistake.
It doesn't check for any values here.
Unit X upgrades to unit Y not because it is better - but because it is specified in the editor that X upgrades to Y. No intelligence involved. I could as well rule that Modern Armors upgrade to Horseman, inwhich case you could only build MAs if you lack Horses .

 

[Ansar]

Well, both Impi and Pikeman may upgrade to Musketman, same as a Hopilite. But since only Zulu can have Impi, this civ will not be able to access Hopilite, which is from Greek. I don't know about if you can really have both Musketman and Impi if you are playing as Zulu, I mean, I thought I had F-15 as well as Jet Fighter when I was playing American. The only thing is that the two are distinct units, or, you can build them at the same time.

Correct me if I am wrong. Please...

You can build Impi AND Pikes, but when you get saltpepper, you can only build Muskets.

 

[bingen]

You can build Impi AND Pikes, but when you get saltpepper, you can only build Muskets.

No, if impi upgrade to pikes (which I think they do) then they will be replaced in the build orders at that time as well. Exceptions:

1. If you have not had a golden age then you can always build your UU. So you can be able to build Impis in the modern age with this exception.

2. If you lack the resources to the more advanced units the less advanced units will be available. This means that Impi are not totally inacessible until you get Nationalism.

@madman: The UUs upgrade normally in most cases. AFAIK this was not the case in the very first versions of CIV3 vanilla, here the UUs were unupgradable

 

[azzaman333]

Impi upgrade to Muskets, i checked in the editor. So impis can be built in one city, and pikes can be built in another city (iron permitting)

If muskets upgrade to swiss mercs, what hapeens if you build some muskets, come across some iron and upgrade your muskets to the cheaper swiss mercs? Do you gain money for upgrading? Or do you just have to keep the muskets?