National College first: A test

[Civilised]

Having recently completed a domination win with Napoleon I noted that the starting position was ideal to test the merits of rushing to National College (NC) first or after about 3 more cities were built.
I made two scenarios - first with an NC first strategy, second building 3 additional cities and then NC.
My conclusion is that on almost all measures it is better to build at least 3 additional cities before NC.

Game Setup: Napoleon, King, Continents, Large, Marathon

Starting Position

Spoiler :

On a standard sized continent. The only other Civ on the island is Alexander, and he is on the opposite side of Singapore which blocks the route between our parts of the island. To the south is Bucharest, which nearly blocks the passage to a third, uninhabited part of the island. There are good coastal/riverside positions for a number of cities not too far away from the capital. The capital has 1 marble and 2 golds in the next expansion ring.

Initial moves - and moves common to both strategies

Spoiler :

Build second warrior - use the two warriors to suppress all barbarian activities, then build a worker
Research (throughout the game - both strategies): Mining/Masonry (to exploit the gold and marble) Pottery/Calendar to exploit silk to the south, then Writing, then Animal Husbandry/Trapping - then beeline Navigation. (Interestingly although I did the same sequence in both scenarios the automated beeline to Navigation took different paths through the techs - in the NC first scenario it went Philosophy/Theology in the NC second scenario it went Sailing/Optics/Compass)
Policies (throughout the game - both strategies):
Tradition/Liberty/Aristocracy/Legalism
Improvements (throughout the game - both strategies):
Marble, 2 Gold mines, farms near capital, Silk to the south
(in the NC first case I built one farm near the capital before the gold mines - this may have been a mistake as gold was always a bit of a problem with this scenario)
In both scenarios the Capital built Stonehenge when there was nothing else to build.

NC Second scenario

Spoiler :

Build 3 settlers and found cities immediately - start building workers in newly founded cities (but none of the workers had completed before NC was built)
As soon as Writing was completed (which happened after the 3 cities were settled) change production in all cities to Library. (No rush buy as there wasn't enough money)
There was a food shortage in the capital - which was fixed by allying with Singapore (one of the bordering City States).
Once all libraries were built, switch the capital to National College.
The National College was built on turn 242 (1080BC)

NC First strategy

Spoiler :

Prebuild about 1.3 settlers while waiting for Writing and also while waiting for money to rush buy the Library!
Rush buy Library once enough money was available (Turn 117)
Couldnt' afford to ally with Singapore - but bought Friendship with them on turn 185 - but I couldn't afford to renew the friendship when it expired.
Continued to build settlers and found cities as quickly as possible.
The third city was founded on turn 196 (1540BC)
For comparison purposes this scenario was continued until turn 242 (1080BC) the same date as the NC second strategy completed.

Results:

Spoiler :

NC Second strategy completed on turn 242 with
Beakers per turn 39, Gold per turn 12, Happy 2, GA 1002/1540, Culture 250/1405 +18
Totals for all cities: Citizens 16, Food 13.5, Production 23
(note there was an alliance with Maritime Singapore)

NC First strategy Turn 242
Beakers per turn 31, Gold per turn 10, Happy 3, GA 1445/1540, Culture 900/915 +18
Totals for all cities: Citizens 13, Food 11, Production 20
(note in this case there were no alliances or friendships - couldn't afford them at this point).

Analysis:
On every measure the NC second strategy gives a better position at turn 242 (which is when the NC is complete in both scenarios and the three additional cities are built.) Perhaps if I had improved the gold mines sooner it would have been possible to maintain the friendship with Singapore - in which case the position might have been a bit better for the NC first scenario!
Also further testing could be done to test for the 2 additional cities or 4 additional cities scenarios - but I'll leave that to someone else.

btw: I've been playing Civ V for about 6 weeks - and have been a close follower of this forum. This is my first post - so please forgive me for any errors!

 

[Fizpez2]

I see you're playing Marathon so I must admit the turn numbers don't mean anything to me but it seems like your plan takes a LONG time from a research perspective (number of techs) before you go Writing. Said another way - theres a lot of techs you research and take before your NC goes live.

I've been using NC first (Emperor/Small map (computer limitations more than anything)/any leader/continents) for my last 5 games and I havent lost one *time to move up I think* and in every case my research goes Pottery -> Writing. Build is typically scout - warrior - something not finished - library - NC.

I'll buy a worker ASAP or if I get a population hut somewhere along the line I might be able to finish a worker before being able to build library (or close thereafter) - in which case I'll use the cash on a CS.

 

[swordspider]

Analysis:
On every measure the NC second strategy gives a better position at turn 242

Here's the deal, you're absolutely right *but* I've fought this same battle for ages on here and there are people that no matter how much data you put in from of them to show that it makes more sense NOT to build the NC early, they still come up with their preconceived notions of why they are right, of which you will see many posts here to follow I am sure.

SO, with that said, thank you for posting, WELCOME to the Forum, and you're completely right even though 20 people are going to try and prove you wrong.

 

[Huaojozu]

Notice that the difference in population leads to the difference in everything else (less tiles worked). The real question in your scenario (other than the fact that you took a lot of time to get to writing in a "NC first" strategy, is why you didnt get the maritime alliance, since especially with tradition, that could mean the lower population and in turn explain everything else.

 

[alpaca]

Did you compare total beaker value up to that point? That's also a relevant figure.

I would be interested to see some test games on normal speed. I would define a couple different scenarios:

a) Scout, Settler, Settler, get libraries up ASAP everywhere and build workers and stuff
b) Worker, Settler, Settler, otherwise like a)
c) Scout, Settler, Worker, Settler
d) Scout, Settler, Library, NC
e) Worker, Settler, Library, NC
f) Scout, Worker, Library, NC
g) Monument, (possibly Settler or worker), Library, NC

There could also be some effect of the first policy you choose: Tradition makes a lot of sense for the NC first scenarios. The monument first could allow you to pick up Aristocracy before building the NC. Also, one should try to equalize everything else, so no ruins and try not to discover too many city states first.

Note that the worker first scenarios will be significantly better if you have a lot of forests

 

[Poomermon]

Thank you for taking your time and testing this. Still I have to question some things.

1. Why marathon? It takes that much more time to test this and numbers you get don't mean anything to most players. You should have tested it on normal for easier to evaluate results.

2. Napoleon's extra culture kinda screws the results. Other civs are not guaranteed to get aristocracy for fast NC. It would have been better to use a neutral civ for this.

3. Why so late writing? I wouldn't call that exactly a fast NC. You can't just go exact tech route for 2 different strategies.

I would like to see a lot of (good) players play a same map with these adjustments. Some going for fast NC and others rexing early (possibly not going for NC at all). Then post results at turn say 100 (on normal) and let people decide which position is superior.

 

[alpaca]

I have a fairly decent initial savegame here with Greece (doesn't have any specific advantages for either strategy, but a lot of forest and a source of gems nearby so the worker first scenarios get an advantage).

Edit: Emperor difficulty

 

[vexing]

My conclusion is that on almost all measures it is better to build at least 3 additional cities before NC.

i love this completely broad conclusion based on one playthrough.

 

[Airey]

FYI, you should provide a turn 0 file (no DLC for some ppl)
if you would like others helping you with the test...
(no offense, but your opening build for 66 turns isn't what everyone would do)

and for test comparison purpose, prob normal or faster speed is better for ppl to help

at first glance, this is a problem

Initial moves - and moves common to both strategies

Spoiler :

Build second warrior - use the two warriors to suppress all barbarian activities, then build a worker
Research (throughout the game - both strategies): Mining/Masonry (to exploit the gold and marble) Pottery/Calendar to exploit silk to the south, then Writing, then Animal Husbandry/Trapping - then beeline Navigation. (Interestingly although I did the same sequence in both scenarios the automated beeline to Navigation took different paths through the techs - in the NC first scenario it went Philosophy/Theology in the NC second scenario it went Sailing/Optics/Compass)
Policies (throughout the game - both strategies):
Tradition/Liberty/Aristocracy/Legalism
Improvements (throughout the game - both strategies):
Marble, 2 Gold mines, farms near capital, Silk to the south
(in the NC first case I built one farm near the capital before the gold mines - this may have been a mistake as gold was always a bit of a problem with this scenario)
In both scenarios the Capital built Stonehenge when there was nothing else to build.

your opening tech paths already delays NC build, thus already biasing over settlement first
NC opening to the extreme means teching Pottery, Writing back to back, and worker as first built, some players can use 1st warrior very well.
(not that I am advocating either approach (it's map and level dependent), but you are stating/proving it for the wrong reasons)

I have a fairly decent initial savegame here with Greece (doesn't have any specific advantages for either strategy, but a lot of forest and a source of gems nearby so the worker first scenarios get an advantage).

Edit: Emperor difficulty

This is great, too bad I don't have DLC.

n.b. for comparison purpose, America is prob the safest civ to pick without any early bonuses, and Ruins OFF...
edit: nevermind...America's UA is actually quite strong for both openings
Greece can do wonders with different opening combination with city states.

 

[Monthar]

I have a fairly decent initial savegame here with Greece (doesn't have any specific advantages for either strategy, but a lot of forest and a source of gems nearby so the worker first scenarios get an advantage).

Edit: Emperor difficulty

This save requires the Babylon DLC, which I do not have.

Folks, please state if you have any of the non-free DLCs installed when you create a save you post. Even if you manually select all the civs to not include the DLC civ, the saved game file includes a flag for that DLC, which prevents anyone without it from loading the file.

If you want to create a save file that does not have the flags for these premium DLCs, move the fold for that DLC to another location. The path is "\Steam\steamapps\common\sid meier's civilization v\Assets\DLC". Here you will find folders labeled "DLC_01", "DLC_02","Shared", etc. In my installation, the folder "DLC_02" is the Spain/Inca DLC. I can tell this because there's a file inside it called "SpainInca.Civ5Pkg". This means I need to move the "DLC_02" folder to someplace else. I usually move it to the "Documents" folder which is also on a different hard drive.

As long as you already have Steam running, you do not have to be in offline mode, after moving the DLC's folder, to create the saved game without the premium DLC's flag being included in the saved game file. You also won't be able to load any games requiring that DLC, since the game thinks you do not have it, which is a good way of knowing you moved the file to a good location in order to "hide" it from the game.

 

[alpaca]

This save requires the Babylon DLC, which I do not have.

Folks, please state if you have any of the non-free DLCs installed when you create a save you post. Even if you manually select all the civs to not include the DLC civ, the saved game file includes a flag for that DLC, which prevents anyone without it from loading the file.

If you want to create a save file that does not have the flags for these premium DLCs, move the fold for that DLC to another location. The path is "\Steam\steamapps\common\sid meier's civilization v\Assets\DLC". Here you will find folders labeled "DLC_01", "DLC_02","Shared", etc. In my installation, the folder "DLC_02" is the Spain/Inca DLC. I can tell this because there's a file inside it called "SpainInca.Civ5Pkg". This means I need to move the "DLC_02" folder to someplace else. I usually move it to the "Documents" folder which is also on a different hard drive.

As long as you already have Steam running, you do not have to be in offline mode, after moving the DLC's folder, to create the saved game without the premium DLC's flag being included in the saved game file. You also won't be able to load any games requiring that DLC, since the game thinks you do not have it, which is a good way of knowing you moved the file to a good location in order to "hide" it from the game.

I thought they fixed the DLC incompatibility in one of the patches? Babylon is not in the game. If you like, post another one.

 

[Celevin]

Can someone post a SS of his starting position?

 

[Airey]

I thought they fixed the DLC incompatibility in one of the patches? Babylon is not in the game. If you like, post another one.

maybe ask Original Poster to post the original save, or another one without mining resource at capital (no gold/silver/gem).

 

[Monthar]

I thought they fixed the DLC incompatibility in one of the patches? Babylon is not in the game. If you like, post another one.

Their "fix" was to flag all saved games to require all DLCs currently installed, even if not used, when the game is created.

 

[alpaca]

Their "fix" was to flag all saved games to require all DLCs currently installed, even if not used, when the game is created.

Typical

 

[Monthar]

I hide my Spain/Inca DLC (see How to Hide Your Premium DLCs for details) and created this saved game with Persia that everyone should be able to open. I chose Persia mainly to complete my 5 golden ages achievement, plus it's a neutral enough civ to not effect the outcome for the various NC strategies.

We start on the coast and don't see any fish, but we do have gems and silver nearby. So this should be a decent enough start.

Spoiler :

Edit: Oops I almost forgot this part.



Everything else is the default setting.

The reason Barbarians and Ruins are both off is so neither one can interfere with the test.

 

[Civilised]

aIn response to the various replies: Firstly, thank you all for your comments. I appreciate it.

I started the test with Napoleon/King/Marathon - because that was the start I already had saved - and the initial location seemed fortuitously good for running this test. I appreciate that Napoleon has some culture advantage - but that shouldn't make a whole heap of difference on a science based test, should it? If doing the test ab initio then I would probably not have picked Napoleon or Marathon.

Secondly, there are a number of comments about the research sequence - I do take your point that NC can be done more quickly - but I wanted to accomplish a number of things given this start position. One: to get marble to make wonder building quicker: Two: to get gold to make money less of a problem: Three: to get calendar. Without those three unique happiness sources one gets into unhappiness quite quickly unless you cap growth. All of these things possibly add up to a slightly slower path to NC (in both scenarios) but should result in a better position at the end. So I would defend taking this approach over just racing for NC - and I think the comparison of the two scenarios is better for taking this balanced approach.

Huaojozu: I agree with you that the difference can be attributed to some extent to the population difference. But that's the point. With the NC second scenario I could afford the Maritime alliance. With the NC first scenario I couldn't even maintain a friendship! If one totally excluded any maritime relationship from the test then it is probable that the results would have been more equal.

Alpaca: Good question, and good suggestions! I included the save files so you can check for yourself and (if you have the time) check the alternative scenarios you suggest. You are quite right that to be definitive it would be helpful to run all those different tests you suggest. I've included the time zero savefile with this reply - so if anyone wishes they can run those additional tests!
Also, as you say, everything in Civ V is very situational. However I have provided one clear example where NC first is not the optimal strategy. I'm sure there are other start positions that would give a different result. My intention in the original post was to introduce some real data into the discussion - by and large the discussion so far has been theoretical rather than based on actual repeatable testing (which is the point swordspider has made in his reply above).

Poomermon: Good questions - I think I've answered your questions in my opening two paragraphs. And absolutely I would value seeing the same kind of test done by more experienced players - I'm the first to admit that I have a lot to learn!

Vexing: "I love this completely broad conclusion based on one playthrough". Hmm, I took the trouble to detail the playthrough fairly carefully so that everyone reading it could see the basis for my analysis. My conclusion is self evidently valid for the scenarios I described. Your comment is trite and uncalled for. If you have actual evidence, rather than sarcastically expressed opinion, to show I am wrong in my conclusions then I would value seeing it.

Airey: I've attached a turn 0 file to this response. But I can't do that with no DLC, nor can I change the game speed - it's the game I already played to domination completion, and it has DLC in it. Sorry. But I agree it would be very helpful to the discussion if someone did the same sort of analysis based on no DLC and a standard speed game.

 

[Nares]

I suspect food poor favors a multiple city opening.

 

[Nares]

I do take your point that NC can be done more quickly.

I'll admit, I ignored the rest of your post there. Like some others, I already found your initial methodology suspect. At the very least, it's shoddily documented. This just confrims to me that you allowed your own preferences towards expansion to delay or otherwise influence your NC first opening.

Also, making "conclusive" statements from only two starts is an exaggeration.

EDIT: Additionally, using Marathon speed really makes any comparison difficult.

but that shouldn't make a whole heap of difference on a science based test, should it?

You didn't seem to compare research results at all. Science based test this was not.

Napoleon is definitely a questionable choice. Additoinally, further reading through your initial report suggests a total bias towards the NC second opening.

 

[Monthar]

At turn 50 I completed the NC with an NC before expansion strategy and I'm at 21 BPT.

Spoiler :

Tech Order:

1. Pottery
2. Writing
3. Mining
4. Bronze Working
5. Iron Working

Build Order:

1. Worker
2. Monument
3. Library
4. NC

Policy Order:

1. Tradition
2. Aristocracy (I got Aristocracy a turn or 2 after starting NC)

Worker Order:

1. Farm on River/Grassland
2. Farm on River/Hill
3. Mine on Gems
4. Chop Forest/build farm
5. Building farm on Plains/River

I left the focus on default until capital hit 4 population. Then I locked one citizen on the gem's mine to speed up production of the NC.

Here's how my game looks at this point.

Spoiler :

Spoiler :

Spoiler :

So far I've met Hiawatha when my warrior spotted his scout across the narrow channel to the south. He appears to be on a different landmass. I then found Elizabeth to my north.

The only money I've spent is the 52 gold Elizabeth required to have a mutual open borders agreement. I only did this so my warrior could explore her lands and beyond.

I'm about to start my initial expansion and will likely have the new cities build Immortals first to get my military strength up.