What are the "standard" builds (research and SP), and how far can I deviate?

[Esporin]

I have looked for similar threads (found a few, but they were not all that helpful), but here I am asking this now. I have been lurking here for quite a while and during that time I have (I hope) learned quite a bit about the game. I have learned that there are somewhat standard routes for people to take depending on the victory they wish, and that I have little idea as to what they are and why I should use them as opposed to deviating from the norm.

-I see people talk about beelining to Education (picking up construction on the way) for almost all of the victories.
-People tend say that you should go with full tradition when it comes to social policies (unless you are wide, in which case you go Liberty, or if you are a civ that is good with religion, in which case you go Piety)
-You want Rationalism for all paths
-etc.

Obviously I may be incredibly wrong with the above, and I hope I am because I want to know what the standard builds really are. So please help fill me in!

However that said I also want to know why I shouldn't go to Banking or even Printing Press first before Education if I wanted more money, or WC. Why I should finish Tradition and go Rationalism (for the most part) as opposed to going half Tradition, a bit in Liberty; maybe some points in patronage or commerce even.

 

[Memoryjar]

I searched for similar help and didn't find. Thanks to open this thread.

I think there's no «standard» builds. Just a common insuring optimal lead near renaissance/industrial era.

My commons paths :
- Build : Monument (even opening tradition) - warrior - warrior. After depend if I'm going to OCC NC or extend before, depends of map, my civ and neigborhood. Usually mix between Shrine/Granary - Settler/library - Caravans/NC/Oracle.
- Research : Pottery - AH (if civ who needs horse like huns, mongols, arabia) - Mining - Writing - Lux tech (try to skip Masonery before Philo if I can) - Philo. Next I move to Civil Service to Education, with variants by Construction (if Neighborhood is angry), Sailing (for second caravan), Optics (if on archipelago map, or sooner if I'm Venice), rush Religion (for Mayas). I don't focus on Education if I play on Pangea with civ with strong UU like Denmark, Arabia, Mongols, Zulus. Rush tech that ensures me my UU and go for domination. After Education depend of the game, mostly beeline PP by Machinery. Sometimes go for Acoustics if I can have Rationalism just after or Astronomy if I have mountain-cities. Next move are to Public School and Plastic. Use to build Oxford for Radio, sometimes for Artillery, in god game for Plastics or Satelites.Variants to Archaeology if going for SV or Globalisation for DV.
- Social : Full tradition 90 % of my games cause I play Standard/Standard maps. Sometimes Honor for early dom. Piety for Sacred Sites or Jesuit Education games. Liberty for ICS. 90 % I open Rationalism and pick secularism. Going to Order for Science, Autocracy for DoM or Culture, Freedom depend of the game. Patronage, Commerce and Exploration depend of the map and the game and how I feel it.

 

[Kouvb593kdnuewnd]

I Think its bad to limit yourself to standard builds which some players seams to do, instead you should make a list of priorities like:

Can I expand fast peacfully, if I can I go Liberty.
If not, Can I expand by using war to slow other civs down, if I can I got honor.
Else go tradition.

Can I survive with the army I got, if build infrastructur and tech non military Techs.
Else build military and tech military Techs.

If you think like this you should be able to play very well without knowing any builds, in my opinion this is superior to what any build offers because its far less limiting then to think like open tradition, get all policies, build NC expand 4 cities camp to dynamite attack.

 

[Resipsa]

Depends on your VC but mostly it follows this guideline;
Tradition:Opener, Legalism, Landed Elite (if not expanding right now), Monarchy, 15% to wonders (Times up with Oracle and NC), Oligarchy. 2 Policies in whatever VC dependant while you're waiting on Rationalism to open up.
Rationalism: Secularism, then the right side of Rationalism then
Your ideology

BO: Scout, Scout, Shrine, Granary, caravan (until you get to 5 pop) then immediately crank 2-3 settlers, Library, Oracle, NC. Build Archers if needed

 

[ravenmagus]

Opening build: typically scout x2 - shrine - monument, scout x 2 - monument - granary, or scout x2 - shrine - granary.

Teching: Pottery - Animal Husbandry/lux tech/Writing/Archery - Philosophy (for NC) - Construction/Education (construction first to be safer) - Acoustics (to open Renaissance Era) - Scientific Theory - Radio (get an Ideology) - Industrialization - Plastics - whatever you want.

For SP order: Full Tradition, Patronage - Consulates (if you have good Culture gain/Oracle), Rationalism - Secularism (as soon as Renaissance Era is open). Ideology really depends, though Order is pretty popular and good all around.

This is pretty much the cookie cutter build for most strategies. Four city Tradition and powerful Science in general is extremely strong for every victory condition, so it's good pretty much no matter what you do (Tradition is still good for early conquest due to the fast money and happiness from Monarchy).

 

[ravenmagus]

I Think its bad to limit yourself to standard builds which some players seams to do, instead you should make a list of priorities like:

Can I expand fast peacfully, if I can I go Liberty.
If not, Can I expand by using war to slow other civs down, if I can I got honor.
Else go tradition.

Can I survive with the army I got, if build infrastructur and tech non military Techs.
Else build military and tech military Techs.

If you think like this you should be able to play very well without knowing any builds, in my opinion this is superior to what any build offers because its far less limiting then to think like open tradition, get all policies, build NC expand 4 cities camp to dynamite attack.

The thing is Tradition gives extremely good early bonuses, pretty much to the point of being overpowered. If you want to expand early, Tradition is still good because it gives huge bonuses for up to four cities; free aqueducts, free monuments and fast border expansion are all really important. If you want to conquer early, Tradition is still good because Monarchy is a good way to solve early gold and happiness issues when the other trees don't offer a good solution to that.

Having a plan keeps you focused and on track. If you keep second guessing yourself and backtracking for things you might not need because you're afraid for the moment, you'll reach National College or Education etc that much later - and slow science snowballs to slower goals.

This isn't to say Liberty, Honor, or Piety are useless (really, just Honor and Piety are), but Tradition is the 'safe/cookie cutter' build for a reason: it's powerful AND adaptive.

 

[Kouvb593kdnuewnd]

Honor and piety is far from useless they may not give the economy benifint of the 2 other trees but they give alot of things that can make them even better then tradition or Liberty.

 

[ravenmagus]

Honor and piety is far from useless they may not give the economy benifint of the 2 other trees but they give alot of things that can make them even better then tradition or Liberty.

The problem is that they don't give the economic benefits, and that's pretty darn major.

They're not useless, per se, but they're extremely difficult to use compared to Tradition or Liberty, even for their intended purposes (Domination and Religion). Piety doesn't even solidify you getting a religion all that well, as compared to a good faith-generating pantheon. They're interesting choices to supplement your strategy later on, but it's difficult to start with either.

 

[Esporin]

For SP order: Full Tradition, Patronage - Consulates (if you have good Culture gain/Oracle), Rationalism - Secularism (as soon as Renaissance Era is open). Ideology really depends, though Order is pretty popular and good all around.

This is pretty much the cookie cutter build for most strategies. Four city Tradition and powerful Science in general is extremely strong for every victory condition, so it's good pretty much no matter what you do (Tradition is still good for early conquest due to the fast money and happiness from Monarchy).

What if I wished to put a few points into something like Exploration or Commerce with my social policies? Is that just not viable, or is maxing Rationalism and Tradition just that much better?

 

[ravenmagus]

What if I wished to put a few points into something like Exploration or Commerce with my social policies? Is that just not viable, or is maxing Rationalism and Tradition just that much better?

The first two points in Rationalism are very, very strong (opener and Secularism). The rest of the tree is good but isn't as necessary.

You'll likely have a policy or two between finishing out Tradition and entering Renaissance for Rationalism. The popular/cookie cutter way is to get Conuslates from Patronage, but I'll agree, I'm a pretty big fan of Commerce too. Exploration, of course, depends on the map type but is really excellent on water heavy maps. I'd say the best time to actually fill these out might be after getting Secularism, if you haven't gotten an ideology yet.

 

[Esporin]

The first two points in Rationalism are very, very strong (opener and Secularism). The rest of the tree is good but isn't as necessary.

You'll likely have a policy or two between finishing out Tradition and entering Renaissance for Rationalism. The popular/cookie cutter way is to get Conuslates from Patronage, but I'll agree, I'm a pretty big fan of Commerce too. Exploration, of course, depends on the map type but is really excellent on water heavy maps. I'd say the best time to actually fill these out might be after getting Secularism, if you haven't gotten an ideology yet.

I see. So I take it once you do get an ideology you want to be pushing all of your available policies into that? Also, do I have to finish rationalism, or does simply getting secularism cover most of my bases?

 

[ravenmagus]

I see. So I take it once you do get an ideology you want to be pushing all of your available policies into that? Also, do I have to finish rationalism, or does simply getting secularism cover most of my bases?

Secularism's very strong, but unless you're pushing for a Science Victory you may not need the other policies.

Ideologies are very strong too; it's likely you'll be spending most of your policies there once it's unlocked. If you have a lot of good culture growth, you may eventually run out of ideology tenets you want, though that won't be for a while indeed.

 

[adcarrymaokai]

Piety for Sacred Sites or Jesuit Education games.

I keep reading about Sacred Sites and Jesuit Education over and over, but in each and every game I play, those go first. If I open Piety and get 2 faiths buildings +2 culture each as follower beliefs and go straight for Reformation, I am still coming in 3-4-5th to add that Reformation, and I can rest assured that Sacred Sites and Jesuit Education will be gone by then.

I've spent many games trying to make Piety work, but it's just an uphill battle every time. Tithe is great and the AI ignores it for some reason, but when you get the buildings from founder beliefs, the AI starts spending its faith to spam GPs and missionaries, and it's a battle of attrition of who can send more missionaries to convert other cities, and while you have to save faith for some Great People, the AI just keeps on spamming.

It is sad, but Tradition is pretty much a must in 90% of games regardless of map size even. It just gives too much to everything you want: food+growth (indirect science gain), gold (monarchy+gold saved from free culture buildings and aqueducts), and happiness. Tradition simply has a lot of obvious and hidden power to it. Even in my Piety opener attempts I had to mix in Tradition and then fill it out later; same with Liberty starts.

 

[Kouvb593kdnuewnd]

Piety greatly increase the chance of getting a religion espacially if you can't use a faith partheon or don't want to, also it give alot of strong things that fits nicely with pursuing a religion, and it can give the turism reformation belif which is probably the strongest policy pick in the game, nothing can give such an easy win as ICS with that policy and 2 religious Buildings and the other reformation belifs are all good, very good.

Honor improves the army alot, more then it get credit for, it even make an army somewhat usefull in peace time.

Easy piety and honor don't get the economic benifints of honor and don't help as much at expansion as liberty but they are superior on the things they do.

Go tradition if you plan to be smal.

Pick Liberty if plan to expand alot, maybe like 8 cities or more.

Get Honor if you need a big army early.

Piety is more of a risk but very good if you can get a religion.

Patronage make it both easier and better to get CS allies, probably best if your smal because the benifints dont really increase if you get big.

Astetics will help with both Culture and tourism which will both make CV easier for you and make CV harder for opponents.

Comerence will help you make more gold and make it more usefull to usefull for anybody really but other picks are maybe better.

Exploration have very nice benfints for navy and coast cities so pick this if you got alot of costal cities and a big navy also this tree is very good for Culture win too, both its wonder and its finisher.

Rationalism do one thing but that thing very very well and that is to boost your sicence, a very good pick indead for anyone but you probably have to rush for it to get most of it.

Ideologies are very strong but be careful here because you can lose alot of happines if you pick the wrong one so keep that in mind.

 

[Kouvb593kdnuewnd]

I keep reading about Sacred Sites and Jesuit Education over and over, but in each and every game I play, those go first. If I open Piety and get 2 faiths buildings +2 culture each as follower beliefs and go straight for Reformation, I am still coming in 3-4-5th to add that Reformation, and I can rest assured that Sacred Sites and Jesuit Education will be gone by then.

I've spent many games trying to make Piety work, but it's just an uphill battle every time. Tithe is great and the AI ignores it for some reason, but when you get the buildings from founder beliefs, the AI starts spending its faith to spam GPs and missionaries, and it's a battle of attrition of who can send more missionaries to convert other cities, and while you have to save faith for some Great People, the AI just keeps on spamming.

It is sad, but Tradition is pretty much a must in 90% of games regardless of map size even. It just gives too much to everything you want: food+growth (indirect science gain), gold (monarchy+gold saved from free culture buildings and aqueducts), and happiness. Tradition simply has a lot of obvious and hidden power to it. Even in my Piety opener attempts I had to mix in Tradition and then fill it out later; same with Liberty starts.

Tested a Culture partheon?

Tradition is so overrated, don't limit your self to it, try to become less dependent on it and just take it if you go smal which I can say I don't Always do, I maybe use it like 30-40% of the times and I can play on diety.

 

[Gori the Grey]

It depends a little on the difficulty level at which you're playing. A lot of the advice on these forums comes from people who are playing at Immortal and Deity, where there's very little margin for error or even inefficiency. Once one path is discovered to be even marginally better, it will emerge as the best path because all efficiencies or inefficiencies snowball. Education and Rationalism are prioritized because so much else in the game depends on science (what buildings and wonders you can build, what troops you can build), and Tradition helps with growth early on, which is probably the biggest thing that snowballs.

If you play at a lower level, these choices are less crucial. You can go after policies and techs because they seem to suit the immediate needs of your civ, or what would make it fun for you to play that civ.

 

[adcarrymaokai]

Tested a Culture partheon?

Usually gone. With a faith ruin+shrine rush I still get to be the 2-3 pantheon founder, and without ruins, you are just left with whatever AI didn't take. Last game I was early, but I was in the desert, so desert folklore all the way.


Also, question. Between tall and wide, what is the margin at which the city is considered tall? How many citizens and at what point of the game is "tall"? Kinda want a good approxmation here.

 

[adcarrymaokai]

Tradition is so overrated

It's just so efficient though.

I started playing with BNW, but some scenarios rely on the older versions of he game where Piety/Aesthetics and Commerce/Exploration are in one. Ideology I can understand, since depending on the VC you can get 6 tenets which is equivalent to getting an entire tree, but why split Piety and Commerce? Too powerful?

 

[Kouvb593kdnuewnd]

Very hard to tell what is considered tall and what is considered wide because we really dont have anything to go on.

I would say that if you go few cities you will probably get a strong early game but your later game will probably suffer compared to a large city empire so have that in mind.

 

[Erneiz Hyde]

As far as policies go, an opening other than Tradition or Liberty WILL be sub-optimal. It can work, but efficiency is the keyword here. Honor and Piety works best as a 2nd tree, particularly best after Liberty because you can afford delaying to finish that while you want Trad complete asap. You can perhaps slip in Honor opening if you're going Trad if you're, say, Germany or Aztecs. You can also mix Trad with Lib, but only if you're Poland.
Also, while the definition of Lib is certainly for wide empires, it's better to associate it with "early conquering", much more than Honor does. Settling beyond 4h city often does you more harm than good, and Honor makes your existing armies better but not necessarily pump them out faster.
Patronage dip is less desirable now that Pledge Protection rests at 5 so no more auto friend all the CS-es, but still useful if you're aiming Diplo.
Rationalism is no longer as essential as it used to be because of the nerfed finisher and RAs, but you should ALWAYS get Secularism regardless of what you're doing.
Commerce in particular is essential for warmongers due to the best happy faces policy in the whole game, and for the fact it unlocks Big Ben which will make buying replacement armies cheaper.
Aesthetics and Exploration can be useful just for unlocking their wonders, which can still be useful for culture defense even if you're not specifically aiming for a CV. But you need to be certain you can get the wonders (use GE) so sometimes it's better to just capture those wonders.

Also, question. Between tall and wide, what is the margin at which the city is considered tall? How many citizens and at what point of the game is "tall"? Kinda want a good approxmation here.

Rather than the number of citizens, I usually gauge it by the number of turns needed for my next population. For tall games, I generally don't want this to be more than 15, maybe around 20 as the critical limit until hospitals. Bottom line is you want to keep growing, and fast.

Wide empires would usually want to stop growing after about 5 or 6, maybe 10 (except the Capital, which you should grow regardless).