New Deity Challenge Series **Suggestion thread**

[DingleBirdy]

I'm starting a new and more structured version of the deity challenges. The games will be bi-weekly and I want some input from the community before I start. There are some tentative rules so far, but I'm open to suggestions. Also, if anyone else wants to co-host, let me know.

Basic Ideas/suggestions
1. Game upload dates? It has been suggested beginning and middle of each month and it's also been suggested they start a week after Game of the Month so there is no interference.
2. No record keeping like HoF or Game of the Month. Although it has been suggested there be spreadsheet of finishers
3. Predetermined victory conditions? Yeah or nay? I'm leaning towards no, because limiting vc's will probably diminish the number of participants.
4. This will all be on the honor system, but don't use the science overflow exploit. We can all tell that researching future tech with 150bpt isn't happening.
5. I want user submitted saves from turn 0. Preferably you have played the game far enough in that you know it will be an interesting game.
6. No team game because that just seems to screw up the ai
7. Never use raging barbs?
8”-if you use maps that don't circle the globe, use a small size instead of standard, but with the normal amount of civs. Like if you chose Europe map, make it a small, but with 8 civs and 16 city states. There is too much land mass if you don't adjust the settings. “
9 Ancient ruins? Yes or no?

 

[hicks53081]

So here's the thing, set the date to 7th and 22nd or whatever, but nobody will remember. They will just show up at the beginning and middle of the month to start a new game. Since this isn't competitive there should not be closing dates and it won't matter if they start on the same day as the game of the month. There probably won't be a ton of overlapping players anyway.

 

[kb27787]

I'm starting a new and more structured version of the deity challenges. The games will be bi-weekly and I want some input from the community before I start. There are some tentative rules so far, but I'm open to suggestions. Also, if anyone else wants to co-host, let me know.

Basic Ideas/suggestions
1. Game upload dates? It has been suggested beginning and middle of each month and it's also been suggested they start a week after Game of the Month so there is no interference.
2. No record keeping like HoF or Game of the Month. Although it has been suggested there be spreadsheet of finishers
3. Predetermined victory conditions? Yeah or nay? I'm leaning towards no, because limiting vc's will probably diminish the number of participants.
4. This will all be on the honor system, but don't use the science overflow exploit. We can all tell that researching future tech with 150bpt isn't happening.
5. I want user submitted saves from turn 0. Preferably you have played the game far enough in that you know it will be an interesting game.
6. No team game because that just seems to screw up the ai
7. Never use raging barbs?
8”-if you use maps that don't circle the globe, use a small size instead of standard, but with the normal amount of civs. Like if you chose Europe map, make it a small, but with 8 civs and 16 city states. There is too much land mass if you don't adjust the settings. “
9 Ancient ruins? Yes or no?

1. No difference to me (I finish all my games in around two hours in one session anyway) as long as it's an interesting map...

2. Don't really care. The main thing for me is seeing interesting screenshots and strategies and you learn as much from what doesn't work as from what works.

3. Nah... although the OP can certainly suggest one in spoilers or something (for example domination is hard because of terrain etc. so recommend science or culture)

4. Agreed. But if #2 is not really an issue, if players cheat, it would be just robbing themselves of the opportunity to practice and learn really, I don't think other people will be that affected.

5. I can think of a few crazy games that I decided to save at t0 (mostly based around insane salt) I can give you... just only ask.

6. No team games.

7. Up to you really. On deity honor still sucks even with raging barbs.

8. Don't really care but I'd like maps to have some ocean because a lot of the game's strategies revolve around it; and AI are not smart enough to know the difference (for example opening Exploration on a boreal map)

9. Yes, esp. if you are going to have Shoshone in the game, but I don't really care either way since ruins add a certain RNG factor into it and getting lucky with them certainly makes a huge difference.

 

[DingleBirdy]

5. I can think of a few crazy games that I decided to save at t0 (mostly based around insane salt) I can give you... just only ask.

Yes, please send me the save through pm.

 

[Manpanzee]

Personally, I'd be interested in seeing weaker starts as well. Tundra starts, jungle starts, etc. I enjoy playing out "bad" starts and seeing how others handle them. Dealing with a wide variety of opening conditions is what keeps me interested -- I feel that only playing "good" starts pushes the game into a race for turn times, which is fun too but can get old. The HoF already exists for that, anyway.

Plus, I feel that "bad" starts widen the strategic space of the game quite a bit. They make Liberty competitive with Tradition more often, and also make interesting things like "NC in a non-capital city" happen more often.

(I'd also like to request that saves that don't require map packs be somehow made to be accessible for those without the DLC. The Assyria map that was posted the other day looks like it doesn't use anything that I don't have, but I wasn't able to load it due to missing map DLC. I'm not sure how that happens or how to get around it.)

 

[DingleBirdy]

(I'd also like to request that saves that don't require map packs be somehow made to be accessible for those without the DLC. The Assyria map that was posted the other day looks like it doesn't use anything that I don't have, but I wasn't able to load it due to missing map DLC. I'm not sure how that happens or how to get around it.)

Huh...I wonder what dlc that would possibly be? I don't have the scramble pack. It was a basic pangaea map. Do you have all the civ expansions?

 

[TLHeart]

Personally, I'd be interested in seeing weaker starts as well. Tundra starts, jungle starts, etc. I enjoy playing out "bad" starts and seeing how others handle them. Dealing with a wide variety of opening conditions is what keeps me interested -- I feel that only playing "good" starts pushes the game into a race for turn times, which is fun too but can get old. The HoF already exists for that, anyway.

Plus, I feel that "bad" starts widen the strategic space of the game quite a bit. They make Liberty competitive with Tradition more often, and also make interesting things like "NC in a non-capital city" happen more often.

(I'd also like to request that saves that don't require map packs be somehow made to be accessible for those without the DLC. The Assyria map that was posted the other day looks like it doesn't use anything that I don't have, but I wasn't able to load it due to missing map DLC. I'm not sure how that happens or how to get around it.)

here is a screen shot of what DLC was needed to play that asyria #38 game...

very basic expansions...

Spoiler :

 

[DingleBirdy]

That kind of sucks. Not a single one of those expansions (besides BNW and G&K) was actually used, but it renders the game useless for those that don't have them. Is there a way for me disable the map packs that are not in use?

Edit: I see that I can disable that stuff from the main menu.

 

[The Pilgrim]

I just love when people take initiative! And even more when they regret it later.
I can be a co-host. 1 game per month is something I believe I can do reliably and if at some point my schedule changes, I'll make sure to find a replacement. Or just leave everything to DB.

Basic Ideas/suggestions
1. Game upload dates? It has been suggested beginning and middle of each month and it's also been suggested they start a week after Game of the Month so there is no interference.
2. No record keeping like HoF or Game of the Month. Although it has been suggested there be spreadsheet of finishers
3. Predetermined victory conditions? Yeah or nay? I'm leaning towards no, because limiting vc's will probably diminish the number of participants.
4. This will all be on the honor system, but don't use the science overflow exploit. We can all tell that researching future tech with 150bpt isn't happening.
5. I want user submitted saves from turn 0. Preferably you have played the game far enough in that you know it will be an interesting game.
6. No team game because that just seems to screw up the ai
7. Never use raging barbs?
8”-if you use maps that don't circle the globe, use a small size instead of standard, but with the normal amount of civs. Like if you chose Europe map, make it a small, but with 8 civs and 16 city states. There is too much land mass if you don't adjust the settings. “
9 Ancient ruins? Yes or no?

1. Don't care. Actually, I prefer not to have particular dates set, some games sparkle more interest than others and RL dictates its own schedule, but if the majority wants set dates, that's fine.
2. No record. No fame... Bummer. Maybe we can add a list of finishers with links to their saves and playthroughs to the OP at the end of the challenge. I think we only did it once or twice and then got lazy. Probably will get lazy again.
3. Strong nay.
4. I'd also mention that there is no restriction on using reloads (not same as replays), but ask participants who chose to use them to be upfront about that and avoid misleading others.
5. I also like the idea to mix easier starts with harder starts.
6. No teams. No crazy conditions, please. For someone who is used to play on pretty standard 'boring' maps they almost feel like a modded game.
7. I have no objection to raging barbs. Don't really care.
8. I don't see a point in using smaller maps and change the number of CS. From my experience, AI can't handle deviation from the standard very well. Also, while I have nothing against bigger maps, personally I won't play them. They just take too much time, which I don't have.
9. Don't mind. We can change it from week to week I guess. Ancient ruins add to randomness, but they are fun and can be very helpful either for AI or player. Last time majority voted to leave them in. I am fine with either.


There are a couple of other thing that need attention, I believe:

10. I really think we should not use any map packs. They add nothing and it's enough that just one person won't be able to participate to determine they are not worth it. As for DLC civs, I'd vote to disable them at least sometimes. Granted most players have them, but we don't want to discriminate those who don't.
11. The use of spoilers. Please, GIANT PLEASE, use spoiler tags. Not just for pics but for game stories as well.

 

[The Pilgrim]

3. Nah... although the OP can certainly suggest one in spoilers or something (for example domination is hard because of terrain etc. so recommend science or culture)

Good idea.

Huh...I wonder what dlc that would possibly be? I don't have the scramble pack. It was a basic pangaea map. Do you have all the civ expansions?

Explorer's pack most likely. I think it was released with Danes. Very useless.

 

[dragonxxx]

Basic Ideas/suggestions
1. Game upload dates? It has been suggested beginning and middle of each month and it's also been suggested they start a week after Game of the Month so there is no interference.
2. No record keeping like HoF or Game of the Month. Although it has been suggested there be spreadsheet of finishers
3. Predetermined victory conditions? Yeah or nay? I'm leaning towards no, because limiting vc's will probably diminish the number of participants.
4. This will all be on the honor system, but don't use the science overflow exploit. We can all tell that researching future tech with 150bpt isn't happening.
5. I want user submitted saves from turn 0. Preferably you have played the game far enough in that you know it will be an interesting game.
6. No team game because that just seems to screw up the ai
7. Never use raging barbs?
8”-if you use maps that don't circle the globe, use a small size instead of standard, but with the normal amount of civs. Like if you chose Europe map, make it a small, but with 8 civs and 16 city states. There is too much land mass if you don't adjust the settings. “
9 Ancient ruins? Yes or no?

1. Friday every two weeks (exact date doesn't matter). Its more convinient this way, as most ppl have time to play a lot in the weekends So when u see the challenge on friday, you can give it a try directly, without getting too many spoilers

2. Finishers scorekeeping seems OK.
3. No
4. I don't even know what that exploit is, can someone explain ? Btw, is restarting the game when you get smashed the first time considered cheating under these rules?
5.
6. no team
7. don't care
8. use only standart maps/standart speed
9. definitely yes

 

[dragonxxx]

And about the maps - I prefer hard starts like the recent one, but still - all civs should be allowed. If you start to Alex or Shacka every game its definitely not much fun

I see no point in playing 5 salt starts, unless you disable SV. Domination or even cultural game might be interesting in such case, but SV is far too easy anyway.

 

[hicks53081]

4. I don't even know what that exploit is, can someone explain ?

Science overflow exploit

Someone out there has a video of them self using the science exploit but I cannot remember who. The tl;dr version is to ignore some really basic techs like the entire naval line and bronze working/metal casting ect. At the first world congress you try to enact Scholars in Residence. Don't use a spy.Instead use him as a doplomat to get your opponents to enact your proposal. Once it's enacted switch your tech to sailing. By this time you should have at least two GS. Bulb both of them. This will start an exponential growth of beakers. If done properly you can fill every tech in the book @1 turn each.

 

[Fluphen Azine]

You guys are doing a great job!! Keep up the good work and Ill enjoy the benefits Also SV isn't so easy when you decide to try it with no army and the AI takes half of your land (thats what I did on your #38 deity challenge) Im not bragging or trying to argue Im just saying that SV is not nearly as easy as say Diplo VC. IMHO at least. However if you guys do need a sub to help out let me know. I usually have alot of free time! Also KB27787 makes culture victory look easy as pie and damn if Cromagnus doesnt make Domination look like the easiest VC of all. I think it is more of what you know and how to adjust to the conditions of the map and the settings and the AI in your game. Really all the VCs are easy in BNW if you know what your doing.

 

[TLHeart]

What I would like to see, is people post the start file from the games they found interesting, had fun with, or just plain got stomped...

And adjusting the settings before generating the map, makes for some very interesting maps, instead of just knowing what the map is by saying Pangaea. Makes exploration more fun, in my opinion.

I play for fun, and some of that fun is comparing my play style with others.

 

[kb27787]

Yes, please send me the save through pm.

hmmm I can't seem to attach files in PM... but take a look at this one...
Ridiculous huh? so much polder terrain.

 

[Acken]

As a side note the currentsituation with like 5 challenges o the forum was the situation why I started to not care about them.
I obviously don't want to forbid people from proposing but if at least one was aimed to regroup more people that would be great.

I'm starting a new and more structured version of the deity challenges. The games will be bi-weekly and I want some input from the community before I start. There are some tentative rules so far, but I'm open to suggestions. Also, if anyone else wants to co-host, let me know.

Basic Ideas/suggestions
1. Game upload dates? It has been suggested beginning and middle of each month and it's also been suggested they start a week after Game of the Month so there is no interference.
2. No record keeping like HoF or Game of the Month. Although it has been suggested there be spreadsheet of finishers
3. Predetermined victory conditions? Yeah or nay? I'm leaning towards no, because limiting vc's will probably diminish the number of participants.
4. This will all be on the honor system, but don't use the science overflow exploit. We can all tell that researching future tech with 150bpt isn't happening.
5. I want user submitted saves from turn 0. Preferably you have played the game far enough in that you know it will be an interesting game.
6. No team game because that just seems to screw up the ai
7. Never use raging barbs?
8”-if you use maps that don't circle the globe, use a small size instead of standard, but with the normal amount of civs. Like if you chose Europe map, make it a small, but with 8 civs and 16 city states. There is too much land mass if you don't adjust the settings. “
9 Ancient ruins? Yes or no?

1. Yes. No end date because it makes no sense with no standings. Would help to make it regular also instead of having one 2 in a week and then none for a month...
2. I'd like it but I know it's work so I don't expect it
3. I'd like a chosen victory condition to increase competition spirit. Still don't see how it would hinder other users experience while it would help some players to know what they should be looking for if they want competition.
4. Okay
5. No comment
6. No team, it just doesn't work well.
7. Don't see why you would never use them... it's a setting like any other
8. No comment
9. Strong no. That is my most hated setting in Hof and Gotm. It increases the risk of replaying, it's 100% luck based and I just hate it altogeher. If rewards were balanced it would be okay but they sadly aren't.

 

[Fluphen Azine]

9. Strong no. That is my most hated setting in Hof and Gotm. It increases the risk of replaying, it's 100% luck based and I just hate it altogeher. If rewards were balanced it would be okay but they sadly aren't.

Really?? It is all luck huh? How many total ruins are there total? Do we have the same number of chance to get any specific ruin at all times? If we play enough games are we going to eventually even out the same number of different ruins? Are the ruins chance unbalanced? I mean are we more likely to get Evidence of Barbs more times over Free tech? I read once somewhere if you settle your cap and pick up a ruin in the same turn you have a stronger % chance to pick up "free pop". I certainly have not seen proof of this in any of my games since Civ V came out. My point is that over time and through indefinite # of games it really all just comes out in the wash. So that being said it really doesn't matter if they are on or off unless you can prove that you have a better chance to get one over another at every given time. Now if your just out of your mind and your going to keep reloading until you get the ruin you want every game than yes that is certainly abuse and you will never have an equal balance. Ruins are to make you get scouts and get out there and explore and get rewarded for stepping out into the Brave New World. If you do not play with ruins on you will just have to take out Shoshone and the game will lose some of it's "I got lucky" flavor which is just an illussion. Also if you take ruins out of the game, will that decrease your number of dig sites for your archaeologist? A bit of a rant I know but I am a little uncertain if the odds are stacked against us or not in ruins? I always felt they don't matter if you get one that is great like Free cult or Free tech than by all means your early game is going to be stronger but they certainly don't change if you will win or not. Understand that luck is really just saying that there is no plan and I don't believe in luck I believe in a plan, and " I just love it when a plan comes together! "

 

[Acken]

I'm not sure what your point is in that mumbo jumbo of a rant you just made. Sounds a bit like a knee jerk reaction to me that would benefit from being more constructed.

If you're trying to say that ruins do not matter from one player to the next... then I disagree. The fact that Shoshone are considered a strong civ is exactly why ruin "luck" matters. Getting 2 free pop and a culture ruin is WAY stronger than a map, gold and barb camps.

But yes I agree they probably won't make you win or lose. That isn't my point. They however can make up to a good amount of turn difference.
As far as I understand you are not in it for getting the faster turn numbers and I'm not going to argue you should ! On the other hand, this thread is in my opinion to voice our opinion as to what it should be. And that's exactly what I'm doing. As you can see, I like results to be comparable which is for example why I'd like a victory condition to be suggested at least for players likely minded. Now you probably also disagree with that. And that's fine even though I don't see why it would hinder your ability to pursue another victory condition. In the end the decision is not up to me nor you.

With that point of view, you may now understand why I do not like ruins. I still play with them because unfortunately most competitive format still use them.

Regarding other arguments:
Shoshone make no sense without ruin, I agree but this is a sacrifice I'm willing to make for less randomness in my game (which is I agree not completely removable).
Scouts would still be necessary without ruins, you need to find other civs and CS and steal some workers. But yes they certainly lose value early on. On the other hand monument and shrine win value. So all in all it's not like you'd have a less interesting game.

 

[Fluphen Azine]

Originally Posted by Acken
9. Strong no. That is my most hated setting in Hof and Gotm. It increases the risk of replaying, it's 100% luck based and I just hate it altogeher. If rewards were balanced it would be okay but they sadly aren't.

First off Im not attacking you Im just trying to say that this comment has no math behind it and if the math behind ruins is unbalanced Id like to know for sure because I don't have that information.

No replays or reloads in GOTM Im pretty sure for it to count right?

(100% luck based) (If rewards were balanced it would be ok)

I was trying to say that they are not "luck" based and they are balanced unless Im wrong on that issue? That is why I mentioned about the settle cap and get ruin in the same turn will increase your "Free Pop" chances. I only read that and have not seen any math to back that up. Also not believing in "luck" personally does make me a little biased. Believing in luck suggests that there is no order and 1+1 does not = 2, and we have to throw math right out the window. Living in vegas I know it is not luck it is all about the numbers.

I think you misunderstood really or maybe I did. I was saying that ruins have no real luck factor because in the long run your going to get the same amount of ruins in total. That being said, IMO, they have no luck factor at all, it all evens out in the end the same way if they were not on at all. Understand I live in Vegas and it is like people who play Black Jack think that if a player takes away the dealer bust card it made them lose when in fact other peoples play have no bearing on your win or loss. All those cards are Xs and Ys and only your play against the dealer is what gives you the edge or let's the house have the edge. I was only saying that ruins really have no luck unless the odds are stacked against you meaning that you have a greater chance to get one over the other every given time. (I would like to know if anyone knows the math behind ruins, is every type of ruin equal % to pop every time? Can you do something to increase your % to pop one over the other?)(This reminds me of the MP players that say going random isn't random because every time they go random they roll India.) So that being said it doesn't matter to me if you guys keep them on or off, it really is the same thing in the long run. I would prefer them on for a more "fun" type of game. As for the VC conditions, I don't really mind either way, I like to play within the rules so if you guys put VC cond on thats great and if they are off thats good too. I think it would be best to have a VC on and if you don't want to follow the VC that is your choice. The more you take out of the game the more dull it becomes IMO (ruins, barbs, changing the AI bias... etc)