I like how you try to explain it away from Adams as if you have some agenda at stake. Signed by Adams, the federalist.
3 acts of treason is a pretty powerful statement to make, and then fail to back up.
I'm not really kidding sweetie.
Reagan's Brain was literally rotting even during his presidency.
I was going to let Cutlass post the followup if he wanted. But I suspect he was referring to one of two things: the Iran-Contra scandal, or undermining the negotiations with Iran during the presidential campaign to go after the Carter administration.
...really? Au-H2O?
I'm kind of curious, I glanced back up-thread and you mentioned how the conservative movement became more religious following his defeat.
He signed the act, you're arguing against historical accuracy.Only agenda is historical accuracy.
Early presidents did not actively pursue legislative agendas in the same fashion as modern presidents. There was a greater degree of deference to the Congress and party leaders (Adams was by no means the leader of the Federalists and had quite a tense relationship with the Federalists retained from Washington's administration).
Undermine =/= treason, politicians do it, and while maybe they shouldn't, in this case he did the right thing, as the President Elect... Carter had clearly failed.I was going to let Cutlass post the followup if he wanted. But I suspect he was referring to one of two things: the Iran-Contra scandal, or undermining the negotiations with Iran during the presidential campaign to go after the Carter administration.
What part of that is an attempt to overthrow the US government?Reagan worked to undermine the sitting president by undermining a national security issue while a candidate for that office. Reagan used US tax dollars to subsidize the USSR's weapons programs by selling them subsidized grain. And Iran-Contra, where he sold guns intended for use against Americans and our allies.
I had to google that to get the context. I'd never seen it before.
Since we're playing what-if, I think there is a decent case to be made for the country being a better place today if conservatism in the form of Barry Goldwater hadn't been ground into the dust by Lyndon Johnson. I don't know another political candidate that was smashed so hard in a general election that many people still consider it fine to vilify him decades later based mostly on the electioneering rather than anything concrete. I mean Johnson did some good stuff, I certainly don't want to give up the Civil Rights Act, but that man was as terrifically effective when he was wrong as when he was right. Mainstream conservative candidates that were for minimal government intervention in people's private lives died with Goldwater, the Blue Dog Democrats have followed suit finally. I blame the Tea Party and the NeoCons on this. It's almost tempting to hate Johnson as much as Truman, really, in some ways.
He signed the act, you're arguing against historical accuracy.
Undermine =/= treason, politicians do it, and while maybe they shouldn't, in this case he did the right thing, as the President Elect... Carter had clearly failed.
Also, talking bad about an opposition party leader, that you're running against, during a campaign, is the right of anyone in the campaign.
Carter sucked, and Reagan was pointing out how he would do better... and then he did better, proving it right away.
Or would you suggest that in running against the incumbent, the challenger can't challenge the incumbents actions? That's his job.
Anyway, it wasn't to lead to the "overthrow", so not treason. I won't even accept it as low or unethical, and I think you guys trying to present it as such is clear nonsense.
What part of that is an attempt to overthrow the US government?
That's what treason is.
Again, the president elect undermining the sitting/lame duck/ineffectual president to get back our people =/= treason.
Undermine =/= treason.
Use the correct words whenever possible, and when called out to be wrong, don't double down on it. Admit you misspoke and fix it.
Richie Macaw
@Antilogic: Goldwater hated the idea of the religious right usurping the party and even warned against it.
*facepalm*He signed everything the Congress passed (I'm not kidding, Adams never vetoed a thing), and that was a Congress dominated by Hamilton's Federalists. He deferred to them to a fault which, to bring this back to SC's point, is what he wanted: an Adams with a backbone that was not run over by Hamilton & Co.
Ummmm... Reagan wasn't doing either. He was freeing Americans.Treason is defined in the US context as citizens levying war against the country or otherwise willingly aiding and abetting the enemy.
So, the PRESIDENT seeks to overthrow himself? You're completely in the wrong arena here...For reference, I consider what the Buchanan war department did (not to mention the Confederate government and army) and Nixon sabotaging the 1968 Vietnam peace talks as unquestionably treason. Not brought to court, but still treason.
He was running for President, Jeeeezuzzz...The key issue with Reagan's Iran saga is whether that country is considered an enemy, given there general hostility and no formal diplomatic relations, but there was not a formal declaration of war. If what he did wasn't treason, he was toeing that line as closely as possible, and doing so for the most naked of ambitions.
@Antilogic: Goldwater hated the idea of the religious right usurping the party and even warned against it.
"There is no position on which people are so immovable as their religious beliefs. There is no more powerful ally one can claim in a debate than Jesus Christ, or God, or Allah, or whatever one calls this supreme being. But like any powerful weapon, the use of God's name on one's behalf should be used sparingly. The religious factions that are growing throughout our land are not using their religious clout with wisdom. They are trying to force government leaders into following their position 100 percent. If you disagree with these religious groups on a particular moral issue, they complain, they threaten you with a loss of money or votes or both. I'm frankly sick and tired of the political preachers across this country telling me as a citizen that if I want to be a moral person, I must believe in 'A,' 'B,' 'C,' and 'D.' Just who do they think they are? And from where do they presume to claim the right to dictate their moral beliefs to me? And I am even more angry as a legislator who must endure the threats of every religious group who thinks it has some God-granted right to control my vote on every roll call in the Senate. I am warning them today: I will fight them every step of the way if they try to dictate their moral convictions to all Americans in the name of 'conservatism.' "
We got Nixon and Reagan instead of Goldwater and Rockefeller and that is why America has failed![]()
*facepalm*
Yeah, and so did GWBush basically, until like 2006, and hence the budget flew out of control, etc. Bad leader, yes, still responsible for it.
You're continue arguing against fact.
Ummmm... Reagan wasn't doing either. He was freeing Americans.
Enemy in a time of war, we weren't at war.
So, the PRESIDENT seeks to overthrow himself? You're completely in the wrong arena here...
He was running for President, Jeeeezuzzz...
So, was John Kerri treasonous during his 2004 campaign? Decidedly no, but per your argument, yes. In the real world, he was presenting options to the status quo.
Sorry to break this to you, but we live in a democracy where people get to choose their presidents (their two options being presented to them by the corporations they are sympathetic to), and they give us options... that isn't treason for crying out loud.
If we lived in a dictatorship, then you could argue it would be treason, because dictatorships don't allow for opinions outside of the government's.
It's hilarious that you're willing to double down on this absurd premise rather than say, you're right, treason is too strong/hyperbole... please, triple down on it. I think that's what people here like to do.
*end facepalm*
Your comment doesn't make sense. Please re-write into a coherent sentence so I can comment on it.
I had always considered Goldwater as a sort of prototype for the modern GOP, given his current fan club. Would you describe his conservatism as a bit more libertarian-leaning in the modern context?
Antilogic, please use words properly in your posts. It makes for a more meaningful exchange.
That's all I'm saying.
If you can't figure the difference between providing an option versus treason, in a democracy, I'm sorry. I don't find it to be at all a subtle difference, but I can't continue to discuss with someone that doesn't make sense.