What other Civs would you like to see added to DoC

[Leoreth]

As of now, the Vikings evolve into one (or rather all) of the modern Scandinavian states, bearing the name of one of them based on their capital location. That's usually Denmark (starting capital) or Sweden (as capital switch to Stockholm is scripted).

 

[mccp77]

Definitely not a priority, but not preferable. Denmark and Sweden were serious rivals, and whereas Denmark's golden age was in the middle ages, Swedens came later.

 

[Raroyo]

As I've stated before (which I have quoted below), the one city challenge does not work as well with Jerusalem as it does with other civs. But your proposal goes an extra mile. You are proposing an a-historical start.
WHAT?
Look I'm not gonna get into a discussion of Israeli history, thats not the point here. The point is that the problem lies with the map. One city challenges are fun in normal civ 4, because in normal civ 4, the cities can grow with unchallenged tiles all around them. In this game it is rare to have a city work all 20 tiles around it. And the solution is not "israel conquers lebanon in the Milkhemet Ha'Atzma'ut"

If you want a Jewish civ, again, see below where I propose the Kuzari be brought into the game (also Leoreth agrees that they are a good fit). Changes have been made to make a Jewish Poland Viable and I haven't tried Jewish Ethiopia, but I'd argue that that should be viable too.

It could be fun to have gameplay focused on using spies although highly politically incorrect and controversial. Something like:
UHV 3: Mossad: Kill x Great Persons in Islamic Nations. (referring to the actions after Munich 1972)
Mossad Agent could even be UU. But in the end it would just be moving units and then hope for a good dice roll.

The low production and other hardships of the one city situation could be solved by a UP (Getting extra gold, beakers from religion spread in the world). The whole production could be based on gold like Venice in Civ 5 with civics capitalism and mercenaries. Maybe you would receive beakers and military units from friendly Nations in certain intervals (also like the city states in Civ 5).

 

[ozqar]

It could be fun to have gameplay focused on using spies although highly politically incorrect and controversial. Something like:
UHV 3: Mossad: Kill x Great Persons in Islamic Nations. (referring to the actions after Munich 1972)
Mossad Agent could even be UU. But in the end it would just be moving units and then hope for a good dice roll.

The low production and other hardships of the one city situation could be solved by a UP (Getting extra gold, beakers from religion spread in the world). The whole production could be based on gold like Venice in Civ 5 with civics capitalism and mercenaries. Maybe you would receive beakers and military units from friendly Nations in certain intervals (also like the city states in Civ 5).

You know, without wanting to get too much into political and ethical discussions, you are recommending to name as historical victory, or as one of the greatest achievements of the Jewish people, the systematic killing of Muslim people. Other civs have UHVs related to war and conquest, but the praise lies in the conquest of the land, not on the killing of the population - and much less of the targeted killing of a specific population - we have a word for that, it's called genocide. A Jewish civ and even an Israeli civ would be interesting (map and game permitting), but this is not the kind of things you celebrate and remember as a historic national achievement.

 

[Raroyo]

You know, without wanting to get too much into political and ethical discussions, you are recommending to name as historical victory, or as one of the greatest achievements of the Jewish people, the systematic killing of Muslim people. Other civs have UHVs related to war and conquest, but the praise lies in the conquest of the land, not on the killing of the population - and much less of the targeted killing of a specific population - we have a word for that, it's called genocide. A Jewish civ and even an Israeli civ would be interesting (map and game permitting), but this is not the kind of things you celebrate and remember as a historic national achievement.

I knew it would spark such debates so I hesitated to post it. Nevertheless the Mongols have to raze cities which isn't quite the ethical achievement in my opinion. I just thought of it in a gameplay perspective: There are so many additions to the spy system in DOC but we don't have a UHV connected to it yet (I don't know about 1.15). Mossad is said to be one of the best intelligence agencies so I saw a possibility there.

 

[Leoreth]

Wouldn't be opposed to a Mossad UHV goal but there are lots of better options of representing it. "Create X great spies" is both unique and encourages you to be active with espionage without constraining you or having unfortunate implications.

 

[Steb]

Funny that this comes up the day after I've decided to try my hand at modmodmodding an Israeli civ, with a Mossad UHV being definitely in the plans.

 

[Lokki242]

If an Israeli civ is added it should have a special palace as its UB since its a OCC. That way the palace could have a bunch of super bonuses to make up for the important placement.

Plus if the bigger map gets implemented, it will also be a little better off.

 

[Steb]

I was thinking of the Kibbutz as a UB, with food bonuses to sustain a large enough population (and representing Israeli advances in agriculture). And a Power of the Diaspora UP that would give bonuses for Jewish cities at peace, and immigration from Jewish cities at war. I'll experiment and see how it goes.

 

[Leoreth]

Oh, that's a nice UP idea. Even something like +1 food +1 commerce for every Jewish city in civs you have OB with would be really cool.

By the way, I don't think Israel should inherently be a OCC civ, but the core and historical area should be severely limited to basically Jerusalem. Since the area is not very fertile there would be too little core population to sustain a large empire.

 

[Ani Taneen]

Wouldn't be opposed to a Mossad UHV goal but there are lots of better options of representing it. "Create X great spies" is both unique and encourages you to be active with espionage without constraining you or having unfortunate implications.

I was thinking of the Kibbutz as a UB, with food bonuses to sustain a large enough population (and representing Israeli advances in agriculture). And a Power of the Diaspora UP that would give bonuses for Jewish cities at peace, and immigration from Jewish cities at war. I'll experiment and see how it goes.

Oh, that's a nice UP idea. Even something like +1 food +1 commerce for every Jewish city in civs you have OB with would be really cool.

By the way, I don't think Israel should inherently be a OCC civ, but the core and historical area should be severely limited to basically Jerusalem. Since the area is not very fertile there would be too little core population to sustain a large empire.

A great teacher once told me, "a strong mind mind will entertain ideas he hates, a great mind will develop them"

So here is a proposal:

State of Israel:
Leader David Ben Gurion
UP: Power of Aliyah, +1 and +1 for every City with Judaism owned by a Civ with Open Borders
UB: Kibbutz, Desert Tiles worked by the city produce +1 , +1 , and +1
UU: Merkava, replaces modern armor, can fortify positions, starts with anti-armor promotion
UHV 1: Iron Dome: Win 20 battles by 2000?
UHV 2: Operation Wrath of God, Produce 5 great spies by 1980
UHV 3: A light unto the nations, settle 12 great people in Jerusalem

Core area: Jerusalem and one square south and one square north
Historical Area: Sinai, Gaza, Amman
Contested area: the part of egypt next to sinai (a single square that represents the suez canal), North till Antioch, East from Amman

 

[Leoreth]

Looks good, alternatively it would be interesting to have them build a nuclear program.

 

[Ani Taneen]

Looks good, alternatively it would be interesting to have them build a nuclear program.

You could name this uhv "vela incident"

 

[inthesomeday]

If we're looking mostly at modern Israel, war and territory is one of the most important things about the Civ. It would be interesting to require them to gain x amount of territory during a war that was declared against them, for example, to represent territorial gains during the Six Day's War.

However if we're looking at historical Israel defending Jerusalem ought to define the Civ. Something like kill x units from: Egypt, Babylon, Persia, Greece, Rome, Arabia, Holy Rome, and Turkey. Or just generally lose no cities to war. That would also help incentivize playing tall, so as to have fewer cities to lose. You could also replace tank replacement with early-game unit, like the Maccabee.

 

[Steb]

I think ancient and modern Israel are two completely separate civs (or at least to the same extent that Persia/Iran, Rome/Italy and Aztecs/Mexico are).

 

[1SDANi]

If we're going to have Jerusalem as a civ, could we also have the Papal State of Rome? IIRC both nations are single city nations within an influential Holy City and are currently represented as an Independent City.

 

[Ani Taneen]

Aren't they included in the Italian Maritime States?

 

[1SDANi]

Aren't they included in the Italian Maritime States?

Wikipedia says that the Papal States were not controlled by Italy until 1870. Settling the "prisoner in the vatican problem" that was brought about by the 1870 conquest was actually a big accomplishment of Mussolini's 1912 Lateran Treaty, which granted sovereignty to the Vatican City State.

 

[Finbros]

Another problem with Israeli is its very late start.
Probably, it can be released eariler by civ that controls Jerusalem/via Congress decision/via UN decision? With ability of switching to it ofc.

Also, what to do if Judaism is found in another city (by Egypt as player or even AI - I think it is possible, though rare)?

UP: Power of Aliyah, +1 and +1 for every City with Judaism owned by a Civ with Open Borders

I think that isn't a problem with all of these shrines +Dome of the Rock, so UP should produce (in capital) and/or

Historical Area: Sinai, Gaza, Amman

and Birobidzhan, of course!

 

[borhap88]

Wikipedia says that the Papal States were not controlled by Italy until 1870. Settling the "prisoner in the vatican problem" that was brought about by the 1870 conquest was actually a big accomplishment of Mussolini's 1912 Lateran Treaty, which granted sovereignty to the Vatican City State.

*1929