Can you guess who said these things?

It's always best to divide a creator's work from his views. For instance, I love the writings of Dennis Wheatley, but his views
are certainly far from anything I find acceptable. The only thing I have in common with him is my loathing for fascism.

I agree, though in Card's case there is a bit of an exception. Many sci-fi fans followed his foray into espionage fiction just because he "had a soapbox" and were treated to his racist necessity based justification for Fascism as a reward. He himself tied his works to his views.

It also brought to light the fact that "necessary genocide" had in fact been a recurring theme in his works previously. That had been easy to just skip past, since genocide on genocide bent aliens is a not uncommon aspect of sci-fi, but when he created the "Muslims as the bugs" parallel it was hard not to look back and wonder.
 
I agree, though in Card's case there is a bit of an exception. Many sci-fi fans followed his foray into espionage fiction just because he "had a soapbox" and were treated to his racist necessity based justification for Fascism as a reward. He himself tied his works to his views.

I had heard something along these lines. I can say Wheatly was from the 1930-onward, and was just writing within the over-riding views of his era.
Nowadays, we have people identifying themselves via many types of fandoms, that they believe reflect their politics. Card is feeding this trend.

Makes me wonder if he wants to merely sell books, or gain status as some kind of media demagogue.
 
I had heard something along these lines. I can say Wheatly was from the 1930-onward, and was just writing within the over-riding views of his era.
Nowadays, we have people identifying themselves via many types of fandoms, that they believe reflect their politics. Card is feeding this trend.

Makes me wonder if he wants to merely sell books, or gain status as some kind of media demagogue.

If the motive was to sell books he certainly went about it the wrong way. A loyal base of sci-fi fans followed him into espionage fiction for one book, but it was pretty clear they wouldn't stay for a second, and there was no reason to expect that a sci-fi writer using their first foray into the genre to make a grotesquely unpopular political statement would generate a new wing in their fan base. Overall, Empire was more of a career killer than a career builder, and it seems unlikely that any professional writer wouldn't have anticipated that result.
 
He had a forum on his website where he defended this "necessary response to 9/11" quite vehemently. I'm sure you can find it unless he abandoned the site or removed the forum.

I can't find it (Hatrack, right?) and it's bad form to assert something others can't verify.

There is also the ... forward? afterward?... from his book, Empire, where he explains his transition from Sci-Fi and historical fantasy to modern setting thriller fiction. Empire by the way, is a blueprint for transitioning a highly polarized two party US democracy into a willing fascist totalitarianism presented as fiction, in which the transition is portrayed as a "difficult but necessary" step for the preservation of "western culture."

The synopsis doesn't give me that impression (it seems to be condemning, not endorsing, the totalitarian state) and the afterword to Empire only warns against political intolerance and the group mentality.

Again: please *quote* Card saying something that could be construed as endorsing fascism or genocide against Muslims. In fact, the Shadow series portrays
Spoiler Spoilers for Shadow series :
a resurgent Muslim caliphate sympathetically, and although it quickly becomes intolerant, it's portrayed as no worse than the other ethnic-based empires that spring up after the Formic defeat. Basically just a statement against political extremism.
 
Your performance issues are not my problem.

Typically, making assertions also gives one a burden of proof. For instance: Timsup2nothin is secretly Hugo Chavez, who faked his death and is now fulfilling his dream of arguing politics on an online game forum. See how nobody takes the claim seriously?
 
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So I see there's going to be no verification of anything. Good day.

It certainly is. Any day when a pompous demand for a link can be punctured with that good of a rejoinder is a great day. Thanks for walking into it.

Now, for a quick show of hands...how many people other than Mr Listerine think I just made up having been active on Card's forums? Good, I don't see any.

How many people think that I would make such claims regarding Empire without having actually read it, debated it, and seen the author's own comments about it? Good, again I don't see any.

How many people are willing to assume that the superior intellect of a bottle of Scope allows for a more accurate understanding based on a synopsis than my own understanding from having read the book, debated about it, and seen the author's own commentary? Good, yet again, none.

Anything else Mouth, or are we done here?
 
I mean it is generally bad form to cite something, be unable to produce it, then pat yourself on the back for how you savagely rekt the other guy, he's not wrong there

Bad form has never been something I shy away from.

By the way, assuming that unwillingness equates to inability is generally a tactical error.
 
It certainly is. Any day when a pompous demand for a link can be punctured with that good of a rejoinder is a great day. Thanks for walking into it.

Now, for a quick show of hands...how many people other than Mr Listerine think I just made up having been active on Card's forums? Good, I don't see any.

How many people think that I would make such claims regarding Empire without having actually read it, debated it, and seen the author's own comments about it? Good, again I don't see any.

How many people are willing to assume that the superior intellect of a bottle of Scope allows for a more accurate understanding based on a synopsis than my own understanding from having read the book, debated about it, and seen the author's own commentary? Good, yet again, none.

Anything else Mouth, or are we done here?

Given how easily you seem to distort the political beliefs of others, I think it's reasonable to suppose that you would also interpret Card in the worst possible light.

By the way, assuming that unwillingness equates to inability is generally a tactical error.

Your ability to argue is not in question, nope. Having your arguments make sense? That's the problem.
 
Typically, making assertions also gives one a burden of proof. For instance: Timsup2nothin is secretly Hugo Chavez, who faked his death and is now fulfilling his dream of arguing politics on an online game forum. See how nobody takes the claim seriously?

Nice edit.

Yes, I see. Now let's look at why no one does, or should, take your claim seriously.

You have no established pattern of behavior to support it. To the best of my knowledge you have never met me, nor claimed to have met me. Nor have you, again to the best of my knowledge, given any indication that your personal history has any intersection with Hugo Chavez that would allow you insights into his actions or motivations. I, on the other hand, can say 'there was this internet forum' and hardly anyone would bat an eye. My established pattern of behavior fits the claim. I can say I engaged in heated discussions on said forum, and again be met with a basic shrug and a "well, yeah, of course you did." And I can say "this is my observations from the time, and no, I have no interest in tracking back over the literally hundreds of thousands of interactions I have had on the internet to find this one" and again it fits in my established pattern of behavior, because I have always snubbed pompous demands of that nature.
 
Your ability to argue is not in question, nope. Having your arguments make sense? That's the problem.

Since apparently following the quoted text is too complex for you, that was a response to LC, who used the phrase "be unable to produce it." Of course, since you failed to recognize the context you couldn't make sense of the argument. Again, your performance issues are not my problem.
 
Amen, can’t trust popular media about who to hate and why.
 
It's always best to divide a creator's work from his views.
Except if you are Terry Goodkind. Then an avalanche of crap comes at you from both sides and forms a beautiful mountain of harmony and crap. And you can not go wrong shaming one of his disciples, be it for the former or latter.
 
Except if you are Terry Goodkind. Then an avalanche of crap comes at you from both sides and forms a beautiful mountain of harmony and crap. And you can not go wrong shaming one of his disciples, be it for the former or latter.

After reading this...I wonder if you have considered taking up surreal fantasy writing yourself?
 
I mean I know who he is and read one of his books. In any case you should talk about him regardless of how well known you think he is because again, that's kind of the job of the OP. I'm not picking on you, I'd love to discuss him; but I'm not going to read a bunch of links to get up to speed.

What has he done that merits apparently-universal disgust?
I met him, back in October of 1983 or so. I wasn't impressed.

I went to a lot of science fiction conventions in the '80s and '90s, and had the opportunity to meet a fair number of authors. But this one stands out not for his writing (which frankly isn't that good), but for RL circumstances regarding that weekend.

I was in college at that time, and taking sociology... and frantically wondering what to do about my term paper, which was due not long after Thanksgiving weekend (Canadian Thanksgiving is the second Monday of October). The instructor, who had also been my Educational Psychology prof a couple of years before and with whom I'd already had arguments about science fiction (he couldn't wrap his mind around the concept of IDIC), asked if I was going to the convention in Calgary that weekend. I said yes, and he said, "Why don't you write your term paper about science fiction? Orson Scott Card is the Guest of Honor, and he's my _____" (I don't remember if he said OSC was his nephew or cousin, but my instructor was Dr. Brigham Young Card - I've mentioned him a time or two here, since he called me into his office and started proselityzing, wanting me to read a bunch of books on Mormonism since it really bothered him to have an atheist student).

So I went to the convention, met him, he autographed a book for me (The Worthing Chronicle; I think I still have it around somewhere), and I remember wondering what I'd say to my instructor the following week if he asked my opinion of his relative. Thankfully the question never came up.

I found enough other things to enjoy about the convention, and on Monday I wrote that term paper mostly off the top of my head. Of course a lot of it wouldn't apply to modern fandom, since there was no internet or online communities back then. If you wanted to communicate with someone across the country or internationally, you either had to write a physical snailmail letter or pay for very expensive long-distance charges.

I've tried other OSC fiction; his Old Testament novels are horribly written. They're dull, repetitious, and on reflection that repetitiveness reminds me a lot of Kevin J. Anderson's style. Never say something once if you can say it fifty more times, and it's not really anything that matters that much. Not that I drink, but if I'd had a drink for every time OSC said that Leah had "tender eyes" or described her as "tender-eyed", I'd have ended up with alcohol poisoning.

Anyway, OSC is no longer welcome on my bookshelves. I don't like him, and I think he's a mediocre writer at best.


Separating a writer's actual writing from the writer's own self is something that depends on the circumstances and how forgiving a reader can be. I got into an awful argument in A&E with someone who berated me for saying positive things about Marion Zimmer Bradley. My view of the situation is that it is a fact that she mentored many young fantasy writers, some of whom went on to have very good writing and publishing careers of their own (Mercedes Lackey is probably the best-known of MZB's protegees). I still enjoy MZB's novels, and as for the RL stuff... I've looked into it and have decided that there's not enough evidence to convince me that I should burn every copy of her books that I own, every copy of Darkover or other MZB settings written by other people that I own, or even the Darkover fanzines I own.

There are a couple of Star Trek pro authors who have been banned from my bookshelves because of their very rude behavior on TrekBBS. I don't appreciate an author arrogantly demanding to know what made me think I had the right to criticize his writing. As part of the paying public who forked over money for his books, that gives me every right.
 
Trying to see what the issue is here.

Given how his Ender's Game series basically devolved into fascist apologia (or he was startling unaware of the Unfortunate Implications of what he was writing) I'm not sure I'm surprised. TBH I'm more disapproving of his fascist apologia then his beliefs on gays or what have you.
 
He had a forum on his website where he defended this "necessary response to 9/11" quite vehemently. I'm sure you can find it unless he abandoned the site or removed the forum. I gave up on it several years ago. There is also the ... forward? afterward?... from his book, Empire, where he explains his transition from Sci-Fi and historical fantasy to modern setting thriller fiction. Empire by the way, is a blueprint for transitioning a highly polarized two party US democracy into a willing fascist totalitarianism presented as fiction, in which the transition is portrayed as a "difficult but necessary" step for the preservation of "western culture."
Was there a series of books? I read the first one a decade ago (so memory is hazy) and it didn't portray the descent into dictatorship as 'difficult but necessary' that I recall. Maybe that was in the sequels? Or maybe my memory is faulty.

I do remember being really disappointed with the book.
 
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