SGOTM 14 - Spooks

[denyd]

Looks like it's back with me - I haven't checked the save, but I'm pretty sure my goal is add as many people & tiles as possible in 5 turns (I think we switched to 5 turn sets).

 

[Yilar]

I think your main goal should be to take as many enemy cities and setup future wars as quickly as possible. Like I said earlier pop should not be an issue.

 

[Paul#42]

So, team Klarius is done for sure...
NP

 

[Andronicus]

Spooks warcry

We have a good number of knights, the key now is getting them to where they can capture AI cities

Current forces
Sumeria
Stack of 26 knights, 1 3knight army and 3 crusaders in 1 stack
3 solo knights, 1 on iron for disconnection
I suggest we gift a new home for Gilgamesh (Mayan Misery needs recapture - too many valuable tiles on ToA island and islands are too close to Sumerian homeland ? Neu Sagres - dont confuse with New Sagres on Mayan island - Neu Sagres has sig flip risk to Persians)
Under rop we can move units next to cities to attack this turn - Ur has Pyramids so is likely to be well defended. (could always investigate cities, but I think this is money wasted)
We have 34 attacks (not counting 1 used to disconnect iron), I suggest about half to Ur, and split remainder to other 2 cities (eg army and 12 knights to Ur, 8 knights to Lagash, leaving 3 crusaders and 5 knights for Sumer. Once in place we can break rop and take all their home island cities hopefully this turn (as well as Mayan Misery).

Then need to transport survivors to Aztecs / Hittites - 7 galleys between Egypt - Sumeria should easily handle this.

China
1 3 knight army stuck on island
28 knights, only 4 healthy; 3 AC, 2 healthy; 1 healthy crusader; 1 cat (disband to hurry something)
- this needs transport to Hittites as soon as healthy, first wave stopping at Sumerian islands on the way (dont want Sumerian capital near their former core).
We have 4 galleys north of China island for the first wave, we need more. The 8 galleys between India and China wont get there in time. I suggest disbanding 4 for 28 shields for settler in Chengdu and rushing galleys in Xinjian and Shanghai on Chinese east coast. 2 galleys can remain for India-China ferry, other 2 can go to Chinese east coast to ferry late reinforcements.

India
8 knights, perhaps leave 2 and ferry rest to China

Korea
3 knight army stuck there

Egypt
2 knights for defence - leave
knight on galley en route Sumeria

Aztec Is
Crusader and knight landed to explore under rop
4 knights on galleys NW of Rome Is can land on NW part Aztec in 4 turns
I suggest we shuttle home units to ex Japan and from there to Aztec
3 galleys avail for Japan - Aztec shuttle. The one which has just unloaded in Aztec plus the stacked 2 NE of Roman Is
3 galleys avail for Home - Japan ferry (Ellipi - Tokyo?), 2 empty just south of Celtia and 1 loaded off our west coast (W of Luanda)
We should be able to get an attack force together in 6-7 turns.

Hittite island
No units there yet, probably similar time frame to Aztec, maybe a turn or 2 longer. Should have plenty of troops with Chinese and leftover Sumerian forces so expect very quick conquest when we do start

Can we win this in 10 turns - I think so.
- note this means rushing temples this turn (need to assess where greatest benefit and only after spending essential spending on horse upgrades and galley or settler rushes)

Other areas of cribbing tiles
settler to 2N, 1NW of Arbela on Persian island - trops going south from core which arnt going to make the Aztec front on time can try to get a city or 2 from Persians (no need to gift them a town first as I dont see us taking all towns on their island. (I thought I did label a settler for this spot, but I assume Paul found a better use?)

S,SE of Laurenco Marques on Mongol island or take Hovd
I prefer the latter since more tiles, less flip risk. Cant do both as would have a hard time defending new town on Mongol territory (although see below for second thoughts).
Not sure what we do with the settler then, but can get galley with settler and knight, pick up knight from Incan land and drop settler. Can arrive at Hovd in 4-5 turns. If rush galley in Lagos this turn, can get 2 knights from our core (eg QQ and Mina to board galley next turn from just east of Praia, from there 4 turns to Hovd -> 4 units landed in 6 turns. If we wanted to dow them now we may get peace straight after capturing Hovd (? gift and retake a couple of towns that already have temples), allowing us to then land the settler on the unclaimed spot on their island and settle it. Risk of them landing more than we can deal with on Iroquois Is.

Mayan island will expand with ToA temples provided dont flip - Copan has highest flip risk 6.5-13%.

China requires 7 settlers to use all tiles - not sure where we get these from given we have lots of resistance preventing rushing. These would give a not insig 55 tiles by my counting! Perhaps late coming knights which wont reach the front can be disbanded for 17 shields each to rush? One should come from disbanding galleys as I described above, Shanghai can be set to grow (7 turns) then rush in 6 turns and a 3rd settler is on Indian island (1NW of Neu Leiria). If these 3 settlers go 3SE of Tsingtao (15 tiles), 3NE of Chengdu (12) and 2S Canton (8) that at least gives us 35 tiles. Other positions include SE,S of Nanking (8), N,NW of Nanking (6) 2SE Canton (4) and 2NE Shanghai (2)

Egyptian tiles - settler builds cant be rushed for over 10 turns exc Elephantine in 7 (unless we add slaves in).
4 settlers plus the temple in Neu Coimbra and Memphis will do the job. Rush temples this turn, add worker to Thebes and Heliopolis. I cant see where to get 4th settler though. Each settler should get 6 tiles after temple expansions (E,NE of Thebes, 2SE of Heliopolis, 2NE of Elephantine and SE,S of Elephantine) edit - can get 4th settler rushing settler in Memphis after the temple - get to size 2 in 7 turns, add the 3rd and final slave for size 3 and rush.

 

[Più Freddo]

my goal is add as many people & tiles as possible

Like Yilar said, taking cities and moving troops in place for taking more cities is what matters.

I think we switched to 5 turn sets

It's as you like, I'd say. Paul just played 10 turns.

 

[Più Freddo]

So, team Klarius is done for sure...
NP

What's Northern Pike to do with that?

(The fact that their 690 AD save has over 2000 tiles territory should be enough anyway.)

Or do you mean that they are "done for sure", since we're for sure going to beat them?

 

[Più Freddo]

Can we win this in 10 turns - I think so

That's just fine, but 12 turns would suffice (domination in the interturn from 670 AD for a victory date of 680 AD), since we haven't lost any AI (yet; if we do we're cooked).

note this means rushing temples this turn

Didn't we just have this? Five turns to expansion, 2 cpt. Rush Temples in 620 AD at the latest.

The Chinese situation is alarming if you are right about the resistance. It would be important to move, if necessary (I didn't look into these cities), healing troops into cities with many resistors, one unit per resistor. If we lose a turn of healing, then so be it. Hopefully they can still be ready to invade foreign cities in 670 AD at the latest. Disbanding Galleys and maybe Knights could also be worth while.

Where no Settler expansion is possible, we might be able to rush Temples. When Knights can no longer reach Aztec lands in time, we can switch to Wealth in the core.

 

[Paul#42]

What's Northern Pike to do with that?

I caught him reading our thread.

That's just fine, but 12 turns would suffice (domination in the interturn from 670 AD for a victory date of 680 AD), since we haven't lost any AI (yet; if we do we're cooked).

one more turn, if they submitted an incomplete game in 690AD they cannot have won before 700AD iirc.
But I don't want to rely on that...

Didn't we just have this? Five turns to expansion, 2 cpt. Rush Temples in 620 AD at the latest.

Jep.

The Chinese situation is alarming if you are right about the resistance. It would be important to move, if necessary (I didn't look into these cities), healing troops into cities with many resistors, one unit per resistor. If we lose a turn of healing, then so be it. Hopefully they can still be ready to invade foreign cities in 670 AD at the latest. Disbanding Galleys and maybe Knights could also be worth while.

Agree.

Where no Settler expansion is possible, we might be able to rush Temples. When Knights can no longer reach Aztec lands in time, we can switch to Wealth in the core.

To keep building units might still pay off even if those units do not reach the front. Building wealth gets us 1g/4s roughly thus 1s/16s when wealth money is used to rush buildings elsewhere. Building and disbanding horses get's us roughly 1s/4s again which is a far better ratio.
So if we cash rush temples, lets cash rush those far away we won't be able to rush by disbanding.

 

[Abegweit]

Wow! Just read through this thread. Lotsa spam in the Spookiest tradition and great Civvin too. I showed your stuff to Mr Spooky Cat and He told me He was proud of you guys.

You seem to be in a close race for the Laurel. Go for it! You know that The Spookster is always there for His people. Do Him honour.

 

[Andronicus]

Abegweit

Yea, I noticed you lurking a week or so ago, nice to know you're still around.

We miss you

Cheers mate

 

[Andronicus]

Five turns to expansion, 2 cpt. Rush Temples in 620 AD at the latest.

Doh!

That's twice I've made that mistake

 

[denyd]

I don't know whether it's my allergy drugs or if I've been away too long from normal Civ 3 games but about a third of Andronicus' ideas didn't click in my brain. So I'm going to join Markh in asking for a skip.

 

[Andronicus]

I don't know whether it's my allergy drugs or if I've been away too long from normal Civ 3 games but about a third of Andronicus' ideas didn't click in my brain. So I'm going to join Markh in asking for a skip.

Maybe its my ideas that dont click, certainly I was wrong about rushing temples for expansion now, that shoud wait at least another 5 turns.

Seriously, my thoughts were just my suggestions of how to get troops to the front and rush settlers in a timely manner, there are likely better options.

Please point out anything that doesnt make sense and I will happily elaborate (or offer apology if my assumption are up the creek). It certainly is not my intent to cause anyone to want to miss their turn

 

[Paul#42]

Well this game is at a stage where we have a planning and execution level not everybody is feeling comfortable with...

No matter who has the mouse, we'll win or lose this one as a team.
So it's no shame to skip playing a set to let the next player do it.

To me, Andro's suggestions make sense - but I'm the one that left this mess for the next player so it's basically some of the stuff that went through my mind also (plus some other great ideas).

If the next player has difficulties to understand the discussion, we can discuss for some more time, we are not in a hurry.

In China, we might also disband some weak-attacking ACs and even slow moving crusaders...
I agree to rush some settlers there - after trying to quell resistance for another turn.

 

[Più Freddo]

If the next player has difficulties to understand the discussion, we can discuss for some more time, we are not in a hurry.

Of course. Please tell us again, denyd, if you want me to play at this point. I might just bogart this cigar and finish it in ten...

 

[denyd]

PF, I'm still a bit under the weather...rather than a full skip, I'll ask for a slot swap - I should be it better shap to play by the end of the week - I don't want to hold up the team for the next couple of days waiting for me to flush the pollen of of my sinus.

 

[Più Freddo]

Got it at 550 AD. Can't guarantee that I'm done by the end of the week.

 

[Più Freddo]

I wonder if it is worth gifting newly captured towns to a low culture AI who are a long way away?

Paul, did you try this? Did it work as you hoped for? I must admit I didn't quite get it.

 

[Andronicus]

I must admit I didn't quite get it.

The idea I had was to gift a recently taken city to someone with low culture far away (eg Babylon).

Our forces can then proceed to take remainder of island without worrying about quelling resistors.

When the original inhabitants of the island have been removed, with the capital far away (and hence flip risk on recapture low), we can retake towns which most likely will still be undefended - at worst only 1 defender. This would presumably be 1-3 turns after gifting.

My thought had been that the recaptured city would have citizens of the AI we gifted to (eg Babs), but remembering the last SGOTM and multiple gifting, it retains its foreign nationality of the original holders (I think this is what Paul was alluding to in that my original suggestion would not work).

It might still be worth considering for several turns, but OTOH we will be unlucky to get more than 1 flip per island and if island conquest is quick the capital will move further away reducing subsequent flip risk. The exception might be Sumerians where the capital will shift to the nearby islands and flip risk will remain high until these are taken also.

It was only a suggestion, I am unsure yet whether it is a good one

 

[Paul#42]

Paul, did you try this? Did it work as you hoped for? I must admit I didn't quite get it.

The idea I had was to gift a recently taken city to someone with low culture far away (eg Babylon).

Our forces can then proceed to take remainder of island without worrying about quelling resistors.

I tried it. I gifted some Mayan and Chinese cities to Zulus.
In Mayan land it did not work at all, no resistance quelled and no citizen converted.
In China it worked quite well, resistance was quelled (without any Zlu unit in there

My thought had been that the recaptured city would have citizens of the AI we gifted to (eg Babs), but remembering the last SGOTM and multiple gifting, it retains its foreign nationality of the original holders (I think this is what Paul was alluding to in that my original suggestion would not work).

The best effect of this strategy is the (extremely?) lowered flip risk - actually I never saw any AI town flip to another AI...

It might still be worth considering for several turns, but OTOH we will be unlucky to get more than 1 flip per island and if island conquest is quick the capital will move further away reducing subsequent flip risk. The exception might be Sumerians where the capital will shift to the nearby islands and flip risk will remain high until these are taken also.

It was only a suggestion, I am unsure yet whether it is a good one

I think it's a good one. We might keep those towns in foreign hands until the final turns. Maybe with a retake and gift-away-procedure in between to prevent defensive units there.
We should make sure that the owner is republic so he won't be able to rush any units.

Another suggestion is to do the trick a turn before the prospected end.
We could gift away the most flip-risky sites and immediately retake them to make them flip proof in the crucial interturn.
That would mean of course that the temples there (if necessary) should be built a turn earlier so we don't need to get culture points 9 & 10 on the final turn but on the turn before.