Misandrism
- Thread starter RedRalph
- Start date
First of all, let me say that I agree that there are some genuinely serious situations where men are discriminated against. The "other stuff" you listed is by far the most serious. However, on point 1, the reason why a lot of "politically correct" men won't even entertain the notion is that the vast, vast majority of complaints about sexism against men are completely juvenile and myopic, and are indeed trivialising actual, real discrimination. I therefore assume that people who complain about "discrimination against men" are middle-class suburban white kids, because they are almost always middle-class suburban white kids who know literally nothing about real, actual discrimination.
Now, the lesson for me is that, if you want to draw attention to real problems that men face, particularly in custody and child-raising, then you MUST absolutely tear apart and dismiss any of those other relatively harmless instances where men are treated e.g. as idiots who can't cook, or whatever other insulting stereotype ad producers shove down our throats to promote their products (I assume you saw that Charlie Brooker then? EDIT: I see you have seen it. Serves me right for not reading the thread). Otherwise, you completely undermine the case against the more serious instances of discrimination that are enshrined in legal statute.
tl;dr - pick your battles.
This a hundred times. I'd furthermore add that it's OK because nobody seriously believes that men are the inferior sex - there are still people who think that of women. The double standard becomes a little more acceptable from that.
cybrxkhan
Asian Xwedodah
I generally agree with the thoughts here.
My problem has been more so with the fanatical feminists (while they are a stereotype, the unfortunate thing is that they do exist) who 1) claim that women are the absolute equal of men, and/or 2) claim that women are better than men for whatever reasons.
I've also been kind of pissed off at the societal double standard in America (and probably the West in general) towards the personality and temperament of men and women. Men can be emotional/sensitive AND manly at the same time - it's not impossible, hard as it is for some people to believe. Sometimes men think about love too, and not just sex *gasp*.
Additionally, I feel that in fiction, a woman with generally "masculine" traits (i.e. aggressive, assertive, etc.) more often than not has such traits define her in a positive manner, while a man with generally "feminine" traits is seen either as some kind of wishy-washy wimp or comical at best - i.e. a more negative portrayal.
My problem has been more so with the fanatical feminists (while they are a stereotype, the unfortunate thing is that they do exist) who 1) claim that women are the absolute equal of men, and/or 2) claim that women are better than men for whatever reasons.
I've also been kind of pissed off at the societal double standard in America (and probably the West in general) towards the personality and temperament of men and women. Men can be emotional/sensitive AND manly at the same time - it's not impossible, hard as it is for some people to believe. Sometimes men think about love too, and not just sex *gasp*.
Additionally, I feel that in fiction, a woman with generally "masculine" traits (i.e. aggressive, assertive, etc.) more often than not has such traits define her in a positive manner, while a man with generally "feminine" traits is seen either as some kind of wishy-washy wimp or comical at best - i.e. a more negative portrayal.
MobBoss
Off-Topic Overlord
This is true. If one takes the man vs woman issue as a total its kind of really hard to argue that men get a raw deal in comparison to how women get treated. I mean, 'deadbeat dad' is a pretty commen quote....'deadbeat mom'....not so much.
Miles Teg
Nuclear Powered Mentat
See Ralph, this is why people object to your points. One second it's grumbling about media portrayal, and the next it's belittling the idea of female equality.
Depressing if well-written OP Ralph, I can see where you're coming from but bound to generate controversy. The way I see it is that the older generations still want to fight cultural battles decades old is all, many of the things they complain about are bound to change if they haven't already. (such as education, pay and employment, etc... all becoming mostly gender-neutral in Western countries. And we're not going to go "back" on social issues like abortion/gay rights anyway despite what any reactionaries say) Though Mise's response is the best realistic one to some specific sociopolitical concerns. As for everything else, not wasting your time with bad media is a start. There's a show called My Little Pony: Friendship is Magic. Watch it.
Seems that some people have been thinking too much during their bubblebaths.
MobBoss
Off-Topic Overlord
I guess one could contemplate the question would Hugo Chavez have gotten more understanding if he were Hayle Chavez instead?
Equality for men doesn't exclude equality for women. It's not that we have to choose, whose situation is improved, both can be, and both must be.
cybrxkhan
Asian Xwedodah
I'd like to correct myself on that, I mistyped that, my bad - what I meant to say was that there are fanatical feminists who claim they are better than men for whatever reason, thus contradicting the idea that women should achieve a level of equality with men.
Although I would add that I don't believe in absolute equality - anatomical differences are more than enough to prove that, at least for me; still, I do believe in equal rights and equal opportunities for both men and women, and in the fair treatment of both men and women, and all that.
In a courtroom, I can get away with antics that a woman lawyer can't and she has ways to persuade that I don't. Those are the breaks. Men are not in any danger of suffering the inequality that women have traditionally suffered.
RedRalph
Deity
- Joined
- Jun 12, 2007
- Messages
- 20,708
First of all, let me say that I agree that there are some genuinely serious situations where men are discriminated against. The "other stuff" you listed is by far the most serious. However, on point 1, the reason why a lot of "politically correct" men won't even entertain the notion is that the vast, vast majority of complaints about sexism against men are completely juvenile and myopic, and are indeed trivialising actual, real discrimination. I therefore assume that people who complain about "discrimination against men" are middle-class suburban white kids, because they are almost always middle-class suburban white kids who know literally nothing about real, actual discrimination.
Now, the lesson for me is that, if you want to draw attention to real problems that men face, particularly in custody and child-raising, then you MUST absolutely tear apart and dismiss any of those other relatively harmless instances where men are treated e.g. as idiots who can't cook, or whatever other insulting stereotype ad producers shove down our throats to promote their products (I assume you saw that Charlie Brooker then? EDIT: I see you have seen it. Serves me right for not reading the thread
tl;dr - pick your battles.
I take your point and agree with it somewhat - I'm not saying legislation is needed to ensure men are portrayed as good at cooking, of course you need to prioritise what's important. Still bugs me though.
Not in my experience, and this type of crap is exactly what I don't want in this thread
Yeah, plenty of people do believe that actually
Exactamundo
So what??? It's irrelevant. Just because the discrimiation we suffer isn't the same as women's doesn't make it something to dismiss.
ParadigmShifter
Random Nonsense Generator
Fanatical feminists just have a bad case of penis envy.
Not everyone can see all five dimensions, but best xpost ever.
Well yeah, you can have a good cry over it, but it doesn't really make it all that significant in my book.
ParadigmShifter
Random Nonsense Generator
If men had to give birth we would have invented machines to do it for us years ago.
Xanikk999
History junkie
I predict in 50 years we will have man-to-woman transsexuals giving birth from implanted female organs.
Well, let's be little more concrete about these things. I don't so exactly know what kind of countries you other people are living in, but I'd suppose US for example is pretty much behind in equality for women.
Here's some things about Finnish equality for men:
1. We have conscription for men. That means that every man has to go to army (unless Jehova's witness, Ålander (it's demilitarized) or health issues). If you don't go to army, you must do one year of work service for no salary (in practice), it doesn't free you from the service if there will be war. If you refuse that, you go to prison for 6 months. The sentence is always the same. Here it's possible to get less time for a rape of a minor, breaking someone's fingers with intention or causing permanent brain damage with no intention.
2. There's a strict moral code that men can never hit woman. Many people consider that this includes self defence also. I know a man who was beaten up by a biggish group of other men because he defended his girlfriend from another woman. There's no similar code on violence on men. It's possile to be beaten to death in the middle of the city while people are watching -if you are a man (not that this is so common though).
One example was in papers some time ago when a man had called 112 when he was collecting his things from his and his ex-wifes apartment, and the woman assaulted him. The man answering him asked: "Do you take a beating from a woman?" and equivalent phrases even though the man insisted that it's not relevant. I consider this pretty bad thing from the women point of view too, the man was in practice saying that this man should hit his ex-wife.
3. Male rape is funny!
Prison rapes, it's just poetic justice that men get raped in prison. That's why it's not a real problem that people should even think about. If you don't want to get it, don't do the crime.
Illustrative example was some years ago when a Swedish boy, he was about 8-10 IIRC, said that his female teacher (or similar) had raped him. This was published in papers as "funny news". In a popular TV-show were celebrities comment on news the host said "The news didn't mention what kind of traumas the boy got from this incident", and the audience laughed.
And lastly everyone, please note that I haven't said that women do not face discrimination or it shouldn't be acted on. The only thing I'm saying is that men face it too, and it's not only little things.
Here's some things about Finnish equality for men:
1. We have conscription for men. That means that every man has to go to army (unless Jehova's witness, Ålander (it's demilitarized) or health issues). If you don't go to army, you must do one year of work service for no salary (in practice), it doesn't free you from the service if there will be war. If you refuse that, you go to prison for 6 months. The sentence is always the same. Here it's possible to get less time for a rape of a minor, breaking someone's fingers with intention or causing permanent brain damage with no intention.
2. There's a strict moral code that men can never hit woman. Many people consider that this includes self defence also. I know a man who was beaten up by a biggish group of other men because he defended his girlfriend from another woman. There's no similar code on violence on men. It's possile to be beaten to death in the middle of the city while people are watching -if you are a man (not that this is so common though).
One example was in papers some time ago when a man had called 112 when he was collecting his things from his and his ex-wifes apartment, and the woman assaulted him. The man answering him asked: "Do you take a beating from a woman?" and equivalent phrases even though the man insisted that it's not relevant. I consider this pretty bad thing from the women point of view too, the man was in practice saying that this man should hit his ex-wife.
3. Male rape is funny!
Prison rapes, it's just poetic justice that men get raped in prison. That's why it's not a real problem that people should even think about. If you don't want to get it, don't do the crime.
Illustrative example was some years ago when a Swedish boy, he was about 8-10 IIRC, said that his female teacher (or similar) had raped him. This was published in papers as "funny news". In a popular TV-show were celebrities comment on news the host said "The news didn't mention what kind of traumas the boy got from this incident", and the audience laughed.
And lastly everyone, please note that I haven't said that women do not face discrimination or it shouldn't be acted on. The only thing I'm saying is that men face it too, and it's not only little things.
This stuff gets filed directly under "rigid enforcement of patriarchal gender roles" and is the sort of stuff that sets any good feminist's teeth on edge. Because as much as it's about "ha ha men are doofuses who can't do things" it's also about "this is WOMEN'S work look how men can't do it".
I can't speak for objectification in the gay community, but again, the rigid enforcement of gender norms - absolutely a feminist concern - is what is hurting that 14 YO Boy too, and it's sad. Ever seen that poster that startts out like this? "FOR EVERY GIRL WHO IS TIRED OF ACTING WEAK WHEN SHE IS STRONG, THERE IS A BOY TIRED OF APPEARING STRONG WHEN HE FEELS VULNERABLE."
Just a note that it's important to view gender essentialism holistically. It hurts men too. This isn't news to feminism.
ParadigmShifter
Random Nonsense Generator
Unlike makeup.
