SGOTM 14 - Plastic Ducks
- Thread starter AlanH
- Start date
Bebekija
King
The plan looks good.
As far as I'm concerned you're good to go.
As far as I'm concerned you're good to go.
- "GS to 1N of the Sugar, together with worker and warrior, they will seal the way of the barbarian spear to other cities and improvements." (Duckweed)
I really don't get that, can someone explain it to me? How can a warrior seal anything when faced by a spear?
As kossin explained. We try to deceive AI. AI does not care about how weak are the units on the way. I used this kind of trick when I tried to control the landing of AI's SOD, a single unit is able to prevent their SOD from landing.
NY warrior to 1S of sugar. Goes back to NY after spear is gone. Just in case we get screwed in Atlanta with a bad roll... NY still has 2spare
You must move the warrior in Atl outside to GH and leave ONLY archer in the city as I suggested. I'm not sure the threshold (5%~1% ?)that AI considers a battle to be hopeless, but I am pretty sure this battle is the case (<1%). Therefore, the barbarian spear will suicide when there's only 1 defender inside the city and no further way to go.
If we can't trade calendar in time, it's probably better to let Seattle workers road the silk tiles instead of mining the hills.
The rest looks good.
Deity player
Prince
If we let only the archer in Atlanta then again: don't we want to promote the archer before the battle?
ok im finally ready to play
. took me a while to find out what it was (3 full installations and all of satturday night), but finally i can load hof saves (that is, if the one where khan jumps up in your face is our official save).
for those interested:
you can run buffy and ffh2 including the advanced naval and improved ai modmods (which are great and you even get to have interesting naval battles) as long as YOU ONLY INSTALL FFH2 UP TO PATCH 41b. the newer patches of ffh2 arent very good and stable anyways...
. took me a while to find out what it was (3 full installations and all of satturday night), but finally i can load hof saves (that is, if the one where khan jumps up in your face is our official save).for those interested:
you can run buffy and ffh2 including the advanced naval and improved ai modmods (which are great and you even get to have interesting naval battles) as long as YOU ONLY INSTALL FFH2 UP TO PATCH 41b. the newer patches of ffh2 arent very good and stable anyways...
No, I'd like to promote that archer to Medic line and use the 1st GG on it, so that we get a free xbow. The winning odd of this battle is around 99%, I consider it as safe, it's also the odd I'd attack with GG.
Deity player
Prince
Yes, he should be fully healled.
According to my just-now-test, the Archer will NOT be healed before the barb attacks.
The difference between healing or not the Archer right now would give (if I'm doing this right):
promote: 95.8% victory
don't promote: 95.7% victory
... basically, not worth it. Better to keep the promotion open for after the fight.
I'll play within the hour.
Spoiler :
The difference between healing or not the Archer right now would give (if I'm doing this right):
promote: 95.8% victory
don't promote: 95.7% victory
... basically, not worth it. Better to keep the promotion open for after the fight.
I'll play within the hour.
We are ready.
As you can see on the last post, the barb suicided without pillaging, we got our 1st GS and Calendar was available for grabs! As a result, I've slightly modified what the workers were doing compared to the plan (improved the spice in Washington, dye in SF and Sugar in Atlanta).
Trades on T103:
Thankfully, we only got a visiting spear. I had to go back with the missionary last turn because the Axe turned around. He is within 1 tile of the jungle tile.
2nd GS
3rd GS
Bulbing...
Since we now have Engineering, our workers can move a lot more around. I've left a few of them unmoved as we can tweak the improvements a bit going forward.
Tech situation, etc.
LOG
EDIT: Will update test game a bit later.
As you can see on the last post, the barb suicided without pillaging, we got our 1st GS and Calendar was available for grabs! As a result, I've slightly modified what the workers were doing compared to the plan (improved the spice in Washington, dye in SF and Sugar in Atlanta).
Trades on T103:
Spoiler :
Thankfully, we only got a visiting spear. I had to go back with the missionary last turn because the Axe turned around. He is within 1 tile of the jungle tile.
Spoiler :
2nd GS
Spoiler :
3rd GS
Spoiler :
Bulbing...
Spoiler :
Since we now have Engineering, our workers can move a lot more around. I've left a few of them unmoved as we can tweak the improvements a bit going forward.
Tech situation, etc.
Spoiler :
LOG
Spoiler :
EDIT: Will update test game a bit later.
Deity player
Prince
Very good turset! 
Bebekija
King
Great job kossin !!
Now unleash your whipping fury !!
Now we have to get our war plan right :
- Who's our first target, North or East? (I'd say East, they already hate us + they're planning war already)
- 1 or 2 stacks? (Probably only one for now, not sure we have enough production power to get two stacks up quickly)
- Composition of the stack? (Xbows for sure, a few stack defenders, Phants? How far are we from Civil Service?)
- ...
One thing that's been on my mind lately : how are we planning to pay for our conquered territory? Maintenance is going to hit us hard, while we don't have that much commerce to pay for it (besides we'll be probably running the culture slider most of the time).
I'm probably a bit too pessimistic once again, but I just wanted to make sure that we have everything planned.
As an aside, I'm quite disappointed by our progress curve. I expected a bigger spike....
Now unleash your whipping fury !!
Now we have to get our war plan right :
- Who's our first target, North or East? (I'd say East, they already hate us + they're planning war already)
- 1 or 2 stacks? (Probably only one for now, not sure we have enough production power to get two stacks up quickly)
- Composition of the stack? (Xbows for sure, a few stack defenders, Phants? How far are we from Civil Service?)
- ...
One thing that's been on my mind lately : how are we planning to pay for our conquered territory? Maintenance is going to hit us hard, while we don't have that much commerce to pay for it (besides we'll be probably running the culture slider most of the time).
I'm probably a bit too pessimistic once again, but I just wanted to make sure that we have everything planned.
As an aside, I'm quite disappointed by our progress curve. I expected a bigger spike....
East witches own GLH+TGW (bye bye barbs)... so they get my vote. Also that means we get to the South faster, which seem to be doing the best of the 4 AI teams.
We will only keep coastal cities and decent food/production/ inland cities. It won't be too different from SGOTM13. We just need enough commerce to keep our army afloat. Also, the capture rate will start being really fast (1~2 cities per turn once we have 3~4 stacks going) so plunder gold will keep us going as well.
Send 1st stack ASAP then work on 2nd+reinforcements.
Stacks composition:
-we will face 20-40% culture only but walls, so we can decide how many trebuchets that is.
-Stack defenders = XBow+spear/WE... we don't need many
-defender killers = Swords give the best punch per hammer until Maces/WEs
3 full galleons (9 units) should be enough to hit Asoka initially. Speed is clutch from now. Last game we hit with 5 galleys (10 units) but that was Swords+Axes+Catas.
Progress curve: if we kept the REX up we'd be even further ahead of other teams. Technology isn't worth that many points, land and population are great however. Don't worry once we start taking cities before 1AD we'll get another big spike
My biggest concern from now on is finding Oz and hoping he is only a Machine Gun or something similar.
We will only keep coastal cities and decent food/production/
inland cities. It won't be too different from SGOTM13. We just need enough commerce to keep our army afloat. Also, the capture rate will start being really fast (1~2 cities per turn once we have 3~4 stacks going) so plunder gold will keep us going as well.Send 1st stack ASAP then work on 2nd+reinforcements.
Stacks composition:
-we will face 20-40% culture only but walls, so we can decide how many trebuchets that is.
-Stack defenders = XBow+spear/WE... we don't need many
-defender killers = Swords give the best punch per hammer until Maces/WEs
3 full galleons (9 units) should be enough to hit Asoka initially. Speed is clutch from now. Last game we hit with 5 galleys (10 units) but that was Swords+Axes+Catas.
Progress curve: if we kept the REX up we'd be even further ahead of other teams. Technology isn't worth that many points, land and population are great however. Don't worry once we start taking cities before 1AD we'll get another big spike
My biggest concern from now on is finding Oz and hoping he is only a Machine Gun or something similar.
That's great results.
I'd suggest that we run the game in a smaller but fast paces from now on. i.e. short sessions and simple PPP.
The worker micros are not important now, so just telling the big direction should be enough. We want shortest road network next.
The city micros are also quite simple, whip until 5~10 turns before victory. The simple rule is "Don't whip away food resources (4F+) and commercial resources (before finishing CS)"
The only detail I'd like to see in the plan is the warring plan.
1. Composition of SOD
2. Where do they come from and in which turn it's ready
3. Marching route
One question is "Do we want to scout East witches with a caravel 1st or just DOW and throw in the SOD?" If we want to war with one SOD 1st, then we don't need to waste hammers on an extra caravel.
BTW, North witches is indeed researching either CS or Feudalism and other AIs are also possibly researching Feudalism now. So we will be facing LBs from South and West witches almost for sure and very likely from North witches too. We are even possibly facing LBs from eastern witches.
I'd suggest that we run the game in a smaller but fast paces from now on. i.e. short sessions and simple PPP.
The worker micros are not important now, so just telling the big direction should be enough. We want shortest road network next.
The city micros are also quite simple, whip until 5~10 turns before victory. The simple rule is "Don't whip away food resources (4F+) and commercial resources (before finishing CS)"
The only detail I'd like to see in the plan is the warring plan.
1. Composition of SOD
2. Where do they come from and in which turn it's ready
3. Marching route
One question is "Do we want to scout East witches with a caravel 1st or just DOW and throw in the SOD?" If we want to war with one SOD 1st, then we don't need to waste hammers on an extra caravel.
BTW, North witches is indeed researching either CS or Feudalism and other AIs are also possibly researching Feudalism now. So we will be facing LBs from South and West witches almost for sure and very likely from North witches too. We are even possibly facing LBs from eastern witches.
great set:
like mentioned before:
im away untill 3rd (or 4th) of october. but i have buffy and therefore hof running and once im back i should have some spare time and am ready to kick some ais around
about ppps and mm:
what duckweed said. no need to go into too much detail from now on. what matter is the fastest route, the whip and the ideal stack comosition
:like mentioned before:
im away untill 3rd (or 4th) of october. but i have buffy and therefore hof running and once im back i should have some spare time and am ready to kick some ais around
about ppps and mm:
what duckweed said. no need to go into too much detail from now on. what matter is the fastest route, the whip and the ideal stack comosition
Comments.That's great results.
I'd suggest that we run the game in a smaller but fast paces from now on. i.e. short sessions and simple PPP.
I agree.
The worker micros are not important now, so just telling the big direction should be enough. We want shortest road network next.
Well, they are useful to mention for the next ~10 turns. After that we can do pretty much what we want with them... Forts in canal cities are bound to be some of the more useful tasks for them.
The city micros are also quite simple, whip until 5~10 turns before victory. The simple rule is "Don't whip away food resources (4F+) and commercial resources (before finishing CS)"
Good simple rule. If someone wants to spend more time with this part of the game however, we can find the 2-pop-whip cycle that yields the most hammers after the initial whipping phase. I doubt this is worth the effort.
The only detail I'd like to see in the plan is the warring plan.
1. Composition of SOD
I've made a suggestion already, previous post. Basically swords+Trebuchets with XBow and spear.
2. Where do they come from and in which turn it's ready
Yes... what I did in SGOTM13 and that worked very well, is grow city on lowest cost unit, then before whipping switch to high cost, whip into low cost.
3. Marching route
We're basically blind right now so we can't talk about it prior to start of war.
One question is "Do we want to scout East witches with a caravel 1st or just DOW and throw in the SOD?" If we want to war with one SOD 1st, then we don't need to waste hammers on an extra caravel.
Caravel would be very good for some intel. on all AIs as well as some intel. on Oz, maybe. If we are not going to war with East witches, then it is almost mandatory. If no, we can add it as an afterthought.
BTW, North witches is indeed researching either CS or Feudalism and other AIs are also possibly researching Feudalism now. So we will be facing LBs from South and West witches almost for sure and very likely from North witches too. We are even possibly facing LBs from eastern witches.
Bummer. At least, we have Trebuchets that will get promoted quickly.
great set
like mentioned before:
im away untill 3rd (or 4th) of october. but i have buffy and therefore hof running and once im back i should have some spare time and am ready to kick some ais around
about ppps and mm:
what duckweed said. no need to go into too much detail from now on. what matter is the fastest route, the whip and the ideal stack comosition
Alright good, I'll keep playing until you are free, unless Bebekija/Duckweed want a set in between. Most likely, we will have started the first war already.
We need to hit east witches 1st, that's for sure.
The 1st SOD contains 3 galleons, that's OK, we need to be clear on this. The SOD can be further divided into 2 stacks, 1st stack with 2 galleons of 4 trebs + 1 xbow + 1 pike lands and bombards 1st, 2nd stack with 1 galleon of 1 xbow + 1 pike + (Toto promoted to Axe?)/1 sword can be 1 turn slower. We also need 1 galleon to scout west (from silk city) and 3~4 galleons for SOD and scouting South (2 from Phi + 2 from Canal and Silver?). Washington, NY, and Boston will produce the 1st stack in 2 round whip, so the 2nd stack of 3 land units could come from (1 from Washington + 1 from either Canal or Silk + Toto?). I think that will make the SOD ready in the fastest way.
Phi will be dedicated to produce galleons and probably Dye city later.
The march route is quite clear for the 1st target, the closest city of Asoka, probably his capital.
Still you need test game to make them clear, when are the fleets ready to sail. What I suggested is to simplify the PPP. I'd like to see us finishing this game 1st again. It's more interesting for me to read other teams' threads while they are still in progress.
The 1st SOD contains 3 galleons, that's OK, we need to be clear on this. The SOD can be further divided into 2 stacks, 1st stack with 2 galleons of 4 trebs + 1 xbow + 1 pike lands and bombards 1st, 2nd stack with 1 galleon of 1 xbow + 1 pike + (Toto promoted to Axe?)/1 sword can be 1 turn slower. We also need 1 galleon to scout west (from silk city) and 3~4 galleons for SOD and scouting South (2 from Phi + 2 from Canal and Silver?). Washington, NY, and Boston will produce the 1st stack in 2 round whip, so the 2nd stack of 3 land units could come from (1 from Washington + 1 from either Canal or Silk + Toto?). I think that will make the SOD ready in the fastest way.
Phi will be dedicated to produce galleons and probably Dye city later.
The march route is quite clear for the 1st target, the closest city of Asoka, probably his capital.
Still you need test game to make them clear, when are the fleets ready to sail. What I suggested is to simplify the PPP. I'd like to see us finishing this game 1st again. It's more interesting for me to read other teams' threads while they are still in progress.
Some numbers on Trebuchets:
Bombard takes 16% away from defense.
Bombard+Accuracy takes 24% away.
If there is a wall:
Bombard takes 8% away from defense.
Bombard+Accuracy takes 12% away.
When facing 20% defense
When facing 40% defense
When facing wall
Capitals, holy cities as well as wonder cities are likely to be 60% culture with walls. We will be facing 2-5 units per city, with 1~2 extra from whip and reinforcements each turn.
4 trebuchets will bring defense down with no walls. With walls, we'd need 7 to bring it down to 4% or 5 accuracy to take it all away.
~~~
Worst case scenario:
The first city we will face has 60% culture... we can take it in 2 turns as Duckweed suggested, first stack with 2 defenders and 4 Trebuchets. These will bring down the defenses quite well and, since I very much doubt we'll be facing Longbows right away, the top defender will be an Archer on a hill. Assuming walls, after 7 bombardments, the remaining Trebuchet will have at least 71% odds of winning his fight. I think these are reasonable odds.
If we're unlucky, it'll take 3 turns instead to take it down.
~~~
I'll finish updating the test game now.
EDIT:
I think I got most everything right. Getting the beakers right was difficult for some reason unknown to me, we had 31 too many so I changed some research builds to wonders for 1t to get 1b short.
EDIT2:
I'm playing around with the save a bit to get a feel for what roads we need and where to get troops from. So far, the first 2 galleons are done quite fast but filling the 3rd one is lagging a bit. It's almost at a point where Philly can whip the 3 needed galleons.
Bombard takes 16% away from defense.
Bombard+Accuracy takes 24% away.
If there is a wall:
Bombard takes 8% away from defense.
Bombard+Accuracy takes 12% away.
When facing 20% defense
- 1 regular trebuchet will take down the defense to 4%. Unless we have spare trebuchets, it is not worth the second bombardment unless the odds are ~50%.
- 1 accuracy trebuchet removes defense completely.
When facing 40% defense
- 2 regular trebuchets take defense down to 8%. Pretty much the same story.
- 1 accuracy+1 regular trebuchet remove defense completely.
When facing wall
- It takes 6 regular trebuchets to bring it down to 2%, or 5 to 8%
- 4 accuracy trebuchets will bring it down to 2% as well.
Capitals, holy cities as well as wonder cities are likely to be 60% culture with walls. We will be facing 2-5 units per city, with 1~2 extra from whip and reinforcements each turn.
4 trebuchets will bring defense down with no walls. With walls, we'd need 7 to bring it down to 4% or 5 accuracy to take it all away.
~~~
Worst case scenario:
The first city we will face has 60% culture... we can take it in 2 turns as Duckweed suggested, first stack with 2 defenders and 4 Trebuchets. These will bring down the defenses quite well and, since I very much doubt we'll be facing Longbows right away, the top defender will be an Archer on a hill. Assuming walls, after 7 bombardments, the remaining Trebuchet will have at least 71% odds of winning his fight. I think these are reasonable odds.
If we're unlucky, it'll take 3 turns instead to take it down.
~~~
I'll finish updating the test game now.
EDIT:
I think I got most everything right. Getting the beakers right was difficult for some reason unknown to me, we had 31 too many so I changed some research builds to wonders for 1t to get 1b short.
EDIT2:
I'm playing around with the save a bit to get a feel for what roads we need and where to get troops from. So far, the first 2 galleons are done quite fast but filling the 3rd one is lagging a bit. It's almost at a point where Philly can whip the 3 needed galleons.
